cobalt

[Messenger]

Interesting stuff Toni
With the chances of a false positive being 2.5 Million to 1 at the level of 120 ug/L
I think 120 would be a high enough level

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harnesslink.com/International/HRNSW-Media-Release---DAY---MCDOWELL-LOSE-SUPREME-COURT-ACTION

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/action/PJUDG?jgmtid=174661

This is from the Harnesslink web site.

I haven't read the entire Supreme Court finding and some will most likely go over my head but I don't understand how anyone would have thought challenging HRNSW's right to implement local rules would fly.
Some of the research presented surrounding cobalt is great reading. Might just go and check that list of readings HRNSW published!

[Messenger]

Some of the research presented surrounding cobalt is great reading. Might just go and check that list of readings HRNSW published!
Do you still have a link to that Brenno?
What category did Beautide fit into?

[aussiebreno]

Do you still have a link to that Brenno?
What category did Beautide fit into?
http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/updated%20cobalt%20results%20publication%202708201 4.pdf

[Messenger]

Thanks Brendan
Beautide had a 43 reading
A reading of 50 is said to only have 1 chance in 118 of being a false positive

[Greg Hando]

Hi Brian.
In my opinion I believe the threshold is WAY TO HIGH as I think it only encourages people to use it and I think it should be given the same scrutiny as steroids in that the level should never be exceeded in the horses life. Horses should able to be tested 24/7 for anything.
One question I have is , " are horses tested upon their arrival into the retention barn ?" & if not they bloody well should be.
maybe you can answer that Adam..................thanks.

Trish all horses from foals up can be tested at any time by the powers that be if needed or required its under the rules about out of competition testing.

[trish]

Thanks Greg, didn't realise that from foals. Would it be against the rules to have a cobalt level over 200 in out of race testing, I don't know if it is, trainers used to be able to use steroids as long as it didn't show up on race day.
I Noticed we didn't get an answer out of Adam regarding the swabbing upon arrival to the retention barn, maybe he can fill us in when he gets a chance.

[Messenger]

Thanks Greg, didn't realise that from foals. Would it be against the rules to have a cobalt level over 200 in out of race testing, I don't know if it is, trainers used to be able to use steroids as long as it didn't show up on race day.
I Noticed we didn't get an answer out of Adam regarding the swabbing upon arrival to the retention barn, maybe he can fill us in when he gets a chance.
Somewhat related, I wondered if it was an offence to even have cobalt on your premises.
The reason I ask is that some horses tested well above the normal <5 reading and although less than 200, you would think they were receiving more than cobalt enriched feed.

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24699

[trish]

Somewhat related, I wondered if it was an offence to even have cobalt on your premises.
The reason I ask is that some horses tested well above the normal <5 reading and although less than 200, you would think they were receiving more than cobalt enriched feed.

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24690
Hi Kevin, In this article it has a bit at the end about cobalt on your premises.

[The Form Student]

That's a long list of new & outstanding charges, it will take a while to go through this.........at least we have been brought up to date!.......thank-you HRNSW!

[Messenger]

That's a long list of new & outstanding charges, it will take a while to go through this.........at least we have been brought up to date!.......thank-you HRNSW!
HRNSW are so far ahead of VIC - in correspondence with Vic I suggested they should consider monitoring Harnesslink to keep abreast of people's concerns but only got the response that they probably read the forum when time permits

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24690
Hi Kevin, In this article it has a bit at the end about cobalt on your premises.

Thanks Trish. The way I read it - you cannot be found to have cobalt at your training premises

[Greg Hando]

Thanks Greg, didn't realise that from foals. Would it be against the rules to have a cobalt level over 200 in out of race testing, I don't know if it is, trainers used to be able to use steroids as long as it didn't show up on race day.
I Noticed we didn't get an answer out of Adam regarding the swabbing upon arrival to the retention barn, maybe he can fill us in when he gets a chance.

If the horse is in work then yes i would think Trish but Hormones are banned across the board now as far as i know.

[Greg Hando]

Thanks Trish. The way I read it - you cannot be found to have cobalt at your training premises

Yes you can but not excessive quantities.

[Messenger]

Thanks Greg

[Messenger]

Another NSW trainer stood down today - Dick Inskip (was tempted to say he has been dumped ;))

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24716

[Race For Fun]

What happens if the points from this win makes a difference to the point score in the series.

Wouldn't you think the positive swabs would slow up, they just keep coming. The prospect of a lengthy stint on the side line doesn't seem to frighten some.

[Danno]

What happens if the points from this win makes a difference to the point score in the series.

Wouldn't you think the positive swabs would slow up, they just keep coming. The prospect of a lengthy stint on the side line doesn't seem to frighten some.

G'day Toni,
I made a forecast some months ago on how widespread the cobalt thing is and it seems despite the heads up provided by the HRNSW integrity unit many people are still living in dreamland thinking they can continue to treat their horses the way they always have!!

Just because a treatment regime didn't swab last year doesn't mean the industry "police" haven't worked it out yet...many of the people going for cobalt have been "treating" their horses during the week for the same way for a loonngg time! and for some reason are having trouble coming to grips with the fact as of a few months ago they cannot continue.Hence the continual flow of cobalt positives......it's quite similar to the bi-carb thing about twenty years ago, many people were feeding/drenching big doses of bi-carb thinking there was nothing wrong with it, and to a certain extent they were right, until a relable test and thresholds were implemented.....and here we are twenty years later and some people are STILL pushing the bouindaries on THAT ONE!

The mentality seems to be for some people that keep pushing until you get busted...then try something else and keep pushing until you get busted FOR THAT!

I think it is no co-incidence that we have so many repeat offenders, it's a personality thing in my humble opinion.

Cheers,
Dan

[HISGEN65]

What happens if the points from this win makes a difference to the point score in the series.

Wouldn't you think the positive swabs would slow up, they just keep coming. The prospect of a lengthy stint on the side line doesn't seem to frighten some.

It is definatly a "mind set" thing with an ego twist in my opinion - I am guessing alot of trainers are so overwhelmingly convinced in their minds that their horses "have" to have something without question & are so gung ho about it that all rational thoughts go out the window - also the fear of your team drastically under performing running "on the engine only" after previously having help is where the ego factor kicks in - not to mention the financial side of things,i guess some think its worth the risk to keep the money coming in to continue their life style - also the mentality that everyone who has success is using something so I will too...it goes round n round & pretty much a vicious circle

[Race For Fun]

Never give up...........


Harness Racing New South Wales has adjourned the steward’s inquiries set down for today into the Cobalt cases involving Neil Day and Dean McDowell.

Cobalt above the threshold was detected in urine samples taken from Benzi Mash following its win at Goulburn on February 24, 2014 as well as McDowell’s runners - Chevals Charlie and The Twilight Dancer - at Bankstown on February 28, 2014.

The adjournment was granted following Day and McDowell lodging a Notice of Appeal against the decision of Justice Adamson on October 14 in the NSW Court of Appeal.

A copy of that decision can be found at

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/action/pjudg?jgmtid=174661

Day and McDowell also simultaneously filed two applications - one with the Court of Appeal and one with the Supreme Court - seeking an injunction against the inquiries proceeding.

The application to the Supreme Court has been dismissed. The application to the Court of Appeal will be heard on Monday, October 27.

The steward’s inquiries have been adjourned to allow the hearing of the injunction application by the Court of Appeal.

The inquiries have been reconvened as follows:

The inquiry involving Day has been adjourned to 2pm Tuesday, October 28;

The inquiry involving McDowell has been adjourned to not before 3.30pm Tuesday, October 28.

Both Day and McDowell have been suspended pursuant to Rule 183, and cannot perform any duties that would otherwise require a licence.

They have not sought to challenge the suspension as part of their current injunction applications pending the hearing of the appeal, but have sought to have the inquiries adjourned pending finalisation of that appeal.

HRNSW Media

[trish]

I have asked this question in a round about way a couple of times to someone like Adam that I would like answered.
So Adam I will ask you directly , can you please tell me if horses are swabbed as they arrive INTO the retention barn?
If you do not know off hand can you tell me who to direct this question to or find out for everyone.
Thank you.

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24761

[Messenger]

So no HRNSW inquiry until their appeal against the decision made by the NSW Court of Appeal (which acknowledged the authority of HRNSW) is heard through the courts

[trish]

So no HRNSW inquiry until their appeal against the decision made by the NSW Court of Appeal (which acknowledged the authority of HRNSW) is heard through the courts

So it seems Kevin.

In an article from Harnesslink news it says......

While the situation has been viewed mainly as a cobalt issue, the broader ramifications could have disastrous for the industry had Day and McDowell been triumphant.
In fact, success would have forced the sport to shut down according to HRNSW Manager of Integrity, Reid Sanders

[Danno]

I really fair dinkum pray for a sensible resolution to this.....not surprised by the appeal so much as surprised by the challenge in the first instance,.....the law can prove to be as frustrating as it can be enlightenining and helpful.

[The Form Student]

You've finally surfaced...........must have been a good celebration!

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24776

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24776

So Dick Inskip :D

[trish]

http://www.racenet.com.au/news/105519/US-vet-banned-for-20-years-on-drug-charges

[Richard prior]

Same should apply here Trish.

[The Form Student]

Reid Sanders on TrotsTV said Cobalt is now old hat, they have moved on to new things!

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/trotstv/tvvideos/16321

[trish]

Reid Sanders on TrotsTV said Cobalt is now old hat, they have moved on to new things!

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/trotstv/tvvideos/16321


And doesn't that stink...............but the old saying is that they will always be one step ahead of the stewards.
Keep up the good work Reid Sanders, over 80 positives your tough stand has to keep going.....throw the book at em.

[trish]

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/news/308/mr-glenn-hayward--inquiry-concluded-

[Messenger]

WHACK - 10yrs Mr Hayward - time to find yourself a new hobby

[Messenger]

I bookmarked this list of Cobalt results

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/updated%20cobalt%20results%20publication%202708201 4.pdf

Was there one before this (I think this is an updated/ongoing list) or any lists since?

[The Form Student]

I bookmarked this list of Cobalt results

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/updated%20cobalt%20results%20publication%202708201 4.pdf

Was there one before this (I think this is an updated/ongoing list) or any lists since?

No, I don't think so, where are the other states on this?

[Race For Fun]

I bookmarked this list of Cobalt results

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/updated%20cobalt%20results%20publication%202708201 4.pdf

Was there one before this (I think this is an updated/ongoing list) or any lists since?

I think that it is current and on going (add to as new readings are published) as far as I am aware.

[trish]

I bookmarked this list of Cobalt results

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/updated%20cobalt%20results%20publication%202708201 4.pdf

Was there one before this (I think this is an updated/ongoing list) or any lists since?

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/cobalt%20results%20publication%2027082014.pdf

[Messenger]

Thanks Trish - that is the most comprehensive as it has an extra couple of weeks from October 2013

[Race For Fun]

I might be going mad but aren't the two web address in post 284 the same? They have the same dates when opened. Someone let me know if I'm in need of help.......

[trish]

I might be going mad but aren't the two web address in post 284 the same? They have the same dates when opened. Someone let me know if I'm in need of help.......


Your not going mad Toni...........................

[Messenger]

I might be going mad but aren't the two web address in post 284 the same? They have the same dates when opened. Someone let me know if I'm in need of help.......

They are not exactly the same - as opening them shows too

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/cobalt%20results%20publication%2027082014.pdf
http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/updated%20cobalt%20results%20publication%202708201 4.pdf

OOps that did not work as they do not show the full address

BUT one has the word 'updated' in the address - strangely the one that does NOT have last October in it

[trish]

Yea I noticed that too Kevin, what I also noticed is that there are about 10 weeks missing, that's if they were testing for cobalt from 4/10/13. It goes to the 18/10/13 & then misses about 10 weeks & starts again 4/1/14 , I find this really strange especially that our biggest sprint race the Miracle Mile is missing its cobalt readings. Wonder if someone from HRNSW can upload them for us to look at. I'm sure it would just be an oversight. I'm sure Adam will be keen to help us

[Messenger]

From the first 566 swabs published it showed

212 are under 5 ug/L
384 are under 10 (ie nearly 68% or over 2/3rds)
486 are under 20
512 are under 30 (ie 90% of swabbed horses)

and the median is somewhere between 5 and 10 (more relevant than the average with this range)

With this being the case you have to wonder what advantage all these legal readings between 30 and 200 ug/L could have derived

Hillier, K 48
Hillier, K 37
Hillier, K 36
Painting, J 33
Elder, B 140
Callaghan, M 52
Camilleri, A 35
Molander, N 32
Ridge, C 78
Slater, R 30
Tonkin, P 34
Tritton, S 35
Lewis, D 45
Matterson, B 100
Meredith, A 110
Rattray, J 43
Hurst, N 65
Hancock, D 30
Baverstock, R 110
Mabbott, I 62
Snudden, S 50
OShea, J 70
Elder, D 140
McDowell, C 91
McDowell, C 200
McDowell, C 110
Missen, A 31
Pizutto, K 30
Males, K 51
Druitt, D 40
Painting, M 120
Weidemann, L 120

Some might deduce that at least some of these trainers are willing to experiment with chemicals - for with the Supreme Court of NSW accepting the statistical analysis of Professor Hibbert

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/action/PJUDG?jgmtid=174661


He put the odds of finding a horse with 80 ug/L in a normal horse population at 6300/1


We really need to swab more horses - whole fields sometimes so that we have a guage as to how potent Cobalt is.

We do not know how many losers are going around with 30mg in their system

Have some of these winners with 30 in their system still got a big advantage over the ordinary horse who has under 10 ug/L

Do we want to see all trainers needing to add cobalt or buy cobalt enriched feed to have a level playing field?

[trish]

I really fair dinkum pray for a sensible resolution to this.....not surprised by the appeal so much as surprised by the challenge in the first instance,.....the law can prove to be as frustrating as it can be enlightenining and helpful.





Court of Appeal today
Justice R McColl
Justice R Macfarlan
Justice M Leeming
1
Hearing

10:15 AM
2014/00308740
Appeal: Neil Anthony Day v Harness Racing New South Wales

Law Courts Building
Court 12A Queens Square Sydney

[Race For Fun]

Thoroughly deserved

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24980

[MJD]

Rodney Pike gone! Rodney Pike pleaded guilty to 5 charges & has been disqualified for a period of 8 years. In considering penalty Stewards were mindful of the following; Pike’s previous offence for a Rule 190 breach, that Cobalt is deemed a Class 1 substance under the HRNSW Penalty Guidelines, the levels recorded being 360ug/L, 530ug/L, 1200ug/L, 1440ug/L & 2360ug/L well above the threshold. Maybe the 200 micrograms threshold is too low since Colbalt is found in most horse feeds, vitamins, however, it can also be given in a powder form or injected and in this case the 200 micrograms threshold was well exceeded in each of the 5 charges.

[strong persuader]

I hope that on reading the attached file, you change your opinion. From the published results, it would seem to me that the 200mg level is four times too high.

[MJD]

I hope that on reading the attached file, you change your opinion. From the published results, it would seem to me that the 200mg level is four times too high.

200mg being "generous" makes the above results even worse. 2320mg is over 10 times the threshold!

[teecee]

Rodney Pike gone! Rodney Pike pleaded guilty to 5 charges & has been disqualified for a period of 8 years. In considering penalty Stewards were mindful of the following; Pike’s previous offence for a Rule 190 breach, that Cobalt is deemed a Class 1 substance under the HRNSW Penalty Guidelines, the levels recorded being 360ug/L, 530ug/L, 1200ug/L, 1440ug/L & 2360ug/L well above the threshold. Maybe the 200 micrograms threshold is too low since Colbalt is found in most horse feeds, vitamins, however, it can also be given in a powder form or injected and in this case the 200 micrograms threshold was well exceeded in each of the 5 charges.


feel free to read articles posted previously by others. Post 292 could have saved your typing digit.

[barney]

Court of Appeal today
Justice R McColl
Justice R Macfarlan
Justice M Leeming
1
Hearing

10:15 AM
2014/00308740
Appeal: Neil Anthony Day v Harness Racing New South Wales

Law Courts Building
Court 12A Queens Square Sydney

Any results from this appeal

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=25029

[G-Mac]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=25029

I had an absolute fill up on that race. Thought I was just a good judge.

[Messenger]

I hope NSW are going to continue to be trailblazers in transparency. I dont think we have not had any test results after 1/7/14

[Pena]

I think this thread should be renamed as if you read the Supreme Courts previous judgement on the McDowell/Day case the cobalt and the chloride separate and only cobalt and or chloride are detected in the urine not cobalt chloride. Reading some of the information and facts on this issue I wonder whether some people within harness racing find it their personal mission to make a stand on this issue.
When I read the HRNSW guideline with regards penalties, they state that "This category of drugs have the highest potential to affect performance and have no generally accepted medical use in the racing horse."
If this is the case with Cobalt why is it allowed to be included in feed and supplements used in all forms of racing. First thing Read and HRNSW should be doing is closing down all feed producers that sell feed with Cobalt as an additive. What would happen if an element of a feed was EPO.
I genuinely hope that all cheats in harness racing are given the flick as soon as possible but when I examine the facts I cannot wonder why this issue is there another hidden agenda. Can't wait for the day we start testing for the amount of oats the horse was fed.

[arlington]

First and foremost has to be animal welfare. Injudicious use of excessive Cobalt is severely detrimental to a horse's health. From some of the Cobalt levels published Reid should be applauded for the stance he has taken. Pretty sure Reid has sought the cooperation of feed and supplement manufacturers in not increasing the level of Cobalt in their products. Am sure all trainers wouldn't let their horses have free access to the oats silo but obviously some have been willing to over dose with Cobalt in whatever form. And I'm pretty sure trainers know over loading with a gut full of oats won't improve performance but they do know about Cobalt but not the consequences to their horse's long term health. Here's a delusional thought, racing authorities rule horses can race on oats and chaff only. Still only one winner, still horses for people to punt on.

[trish]

The swabbing procedures test for cobalt. The fact that cobalt comes as cobalt chloride is like putting milk on your weet-bix, the body finds it much easier to process. Its like adding ascorbic acid to iron, its easier absorbed. It is a category 1 "drug" when used at levels above the allowable threshold . Bi carb is also illegal at high levels . Cobalt is allowed in feed and other supplements because it is a naturally occurring heavy metal which is not easily absorbed and there is no chance of reaching the threshold ,or even getting close ,if you obey the rules . I think everyone should make it their personal mission to make a stand . Have you seen or heard about this years breeding numbers disaster ?


http://www.harnesslink.com/New-Zealand/Financial-support-for-breeders

[Messenger]

I am going to put the above link in the Ray Chaplin thread Trish

For those who did not read his report but find Trish's link interesting - just read the 'blue' in the first post in the following thread

http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?6358-Standardbred-Breeding-and-Utilization-Report-What-is-the-future-of-our-industry-sport

It still stuns me that he sent his report to HRA and never even received acknowledgement of receipt

[Race For Fun]

I am sorry but Reid has got you all bluffed. If you get access to the Misuse of Cobalt in horses report it recommends that the out of competition testing in horses level should be set at 2000 micrograms/litre, so the welfare of horses is simply just a big bluff. .

Can you please post a link to this cobalt report that you have mentioned so we can read it.

I might be wrong I often am but wasn't Mr Beatie head steward while the "green light affair" was going on? If I am wrong on this point I apologise.

[Pena]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1719/abstract

You have to pay $6 to view the report for 48 hours. The summary does tell you the basics however. A nano gram per ml or ug/ml is the same a microgram per litre.

[Pena]

Don't get me wrong I am not giving the thumbs up to the previous chief just see there is a total lack of transparency at present.

[Pena]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Another-NSW-disqualification

I wonder who wrote this???

[The Form Student]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Another-NSW-disqualification

I wonder who wrote this???

It was issued by the HRNSW stewards?

It seems that the stewards, have got someone that has not totally exceeded the TCO2 levels, on other charges to assist with their case, tubing close to a race within 48 hours, unlicensed persons administering the TCO2, and not maintain proper treatment records! (well!......no records)............but not for exceeding the thresholds! This is interesting.

The stewards are leaving open the findings, and don't really care whether the trainer or someone else the trainer engaged, to stomach tube the horses within 48 hours of the race? I am not sure they have the evidence to prove who it was, or also whether they can prove they were tubed within 48 hours of the race! I don't know the answer to the question, that if you tube a horse within 72 hours of a race with TCO2, whether it is still in their system to the levels recorded?

[Race For Fun]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=25104

[Messenger]

I hope NSW are going to continue to be trailblazers in transparency. I dont think we have not had any test results after 1/7/14


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1719/abstract

You have to pay $6 to view the report for 48 hours. The summary does tell you the basics however. A nano gram per ml or ug/ml is the same a microgram per litre.

I am more interested in seeing the latest test results Jack

[Pena]

Ignorance is bliss I suppose Messenger

[Toohard]

I hope NSW are going to continue to be trailblazers in transparency. I dont think we have not had any test results after 1/7/14

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/cobalt%20results%20publication%2001122014.pdf

[teecee]

Who said ignorance is bliss.
A nano gram per ml or ug/ml is the same a microgram per litre.


1000nanograms (ng)= 1 microgram (ug)
1000mls = 1 litre.

[Mister JayKO]

Without going through the figures in a statistical fashion <10 looks the norm.


> 10-15 my observation would be that there is some additive involved


> 20 definitely intervention - not natural


Intrigued to see some consistent stables and "Superstars" in >20 category


Should be concerning for everyone.

[Pena]

Stu, I totally disagree that it is of any concern. There are totally legitimate, totally legal supplements that will give an elevated Cobalt level. HRNSW's own testing that they have produced in court says as much. The question is the withholding period and if you regularly inject your horses with a product like Vam (that is totally legal) you can get elevated results above the 200. HRNSW only did this for 5 days on 5 horses and were able to get above the 200. As I stated in a deleted post as I layed it on a bit thick about the Chief Steward, the HKJC recommend a non race day limit of 2000 so the toxicity of the cobalt is quite frankly just trying to vilify Cobalt and justify the tough stance.
Therefore there is no doubt that it is difficult to get over the 200 level if you treat the horse outside the 24 hour window, however the testing done by HRNSW has only been done for a small sample for a small period of time who really knows what the truth is.

[Race For Fun]

Stu, I totally disagree that it is of any concern. There are totally legitimate, totally legal supplements that will give an elevated Cobalt level. HRNSW's own testing that they have produced in court says as much. The question is the withholding period and if you regularly inject your horses with a product like Vam (that is totally legal) you can get elevated results above the 200. HRNSW only did this for 5 days on 5 horses and were able to get above the 200. As I stated in a deleted post as I layed it on a bit thick about the Chief Steward, the HKJC recommend a non race day limit of 2000 so the toxicity of the cobalt is quite frankly just trying to vilify Cobalt and justify the tough stance.
Therefore there is no doubt that it is difficult to get over the 200 level if you treat the horse outside the 24 hour window, however the testing done by HRNSW has only been done for a small sample for a small period of time who really knows what the truth is.


Lots of treatments are legal it is a matter of when they are given and if recommended dose rates are exceeded, this is where the problem lies. If cobalt does not give a horse a "boost" I am pretty sure people wouldn't be giving horses excess amounts. Hard to say some people are not using more cobalt than other people when many horses levels are <5 compared to others over 20 or 30 and some over 100.

I'm with you Stu.

[Messenger]

I heard somewhere that people have experimented to see if they can get a reading of 35+ using just feed and have not been able to

[Pena]

It must be the only Class 1 drug that can do that!

[Richard prior]

Hey Jack, You seem to know a lot about it??? Pretty sure that the trial only included horse feeds that included Cobalt and the horses were given more food than they would normally receive and the highest level recorded was 35.

[arlington]

RE: Post #301. Jack, your point of view seems to stem from thoughts of a possible "hidden agenda". Any thoughts on what that might be?
HRNSW, Reid Sanders, weren't the first racing jurisdiction in the world to implement a Cobalt rule. The jurisdictions within Australia and New Zealand that followed were all influenced by Reid alone?
World wide, most trainers are represented by an Association if they choose. Harness trainers in NSW made representation to HRNSW to allay their fears of Cobalt containing supplements used under manufacturer's guidelines, and within prescribed withholding periods, would see them breach the Cobalt rule. Just picking trainers out of the blue, I haven't heard of the McCarthy or Tritton stables having concerns since the Trainer's representation. Similarly in Victoria, I haven't heard of the likes of Darren Weir or Peter Moody seeking their Association to have the Cobalt rules changed.

[Messenger]

Gallops find in today's papers

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/stewards-find-first-cobalt-chloride-irregularity-in-victoria-20141204-120dwm.html

[Pena]

Richard, you are right I am intrigued by this issue. I have been following the Supreme Court action and to be honest my initial reaction was HRNSW have the right to impose whatever rules it wants and if a substance is genuinely harmful dangerous to a horse then I agree with a ban. Then I started to do some research myself on the testing and effects of Cobalt and to be honest I could not find a lot of information available and I started to think if HRNSW has all this research why have they not disclosed it all of it to participants. It seemed to me there is a hidden agenda.
When I started reading research lately and I am seeing that acceptable levels for horses out of works is 2000 micrograms I start to wonder is Cobalt all it has been detailed to be to the HRNSW stewards.
Of the information available and the penalty rules of HRNSW I can in no way see that Cobalt is a Class 1 substance. If trainers are treating horses the substance as detailed in an appeal hearing of "Water for Injection" should get hefty penalties as this is not a legitimate treatment for horses as I don't believe any non standard supplements should be used. This does not mean however that there is any definitive proof that you cannot get a positive to cobalt by using a approved product and secondly and most importantly there have been no studies to determine if you receive a horse from another trainer and they have treated a horse with an illegal product what the withholding period of the substance. I have heard a rumour that there was a trainer that received a horse from a trainer that was stood down and the horse was still border line to the 200 micrograms 10 days after they received the horse. Why is this information not provided to participants so they can protect themselves.
The story above does not seem totally correct. From my understanding the 2 trainers stood down from the Meadowlands were barred from Jeff Dural tracks not disqualified or suspended. Funnily enough earlier in the year I believe the same owner of the race courses would not let Brian Sears drive at his tracks because he would not commit solely to his tracks, so hardly disqualified.

[Pena]

Wayne, the truth is I think generally the penalties are disproportionate as opposed to penalties such as having your horse full of pain killer and only being eligible for 2 years. I think the stewards who pioneered the outlawing cobalt and keeping in the news would look good on your CV.

[Pena]

On the story from the Age it does not appear that Bob Baffert has been stood down??

[arlington]

Jack, the EPO effect of excessive Cobalt administration gets you the severe penalty. On my CV?

[Race For Fun]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Day-and-McDowell-Cobalt-appeal-dismissed

[Messenger]

I hope this doesn't ruin their Christmases

[barney]

Racing Nsw have announced they are going to introduce a limit of 200mg for cobalt chloride as from 1/1/2015 which i think is the same as Nsw harness.Now we just need Victoria to get serious and we maybe on the way to regaining public confidence.

[Race For Fun]

Racing Nsw have announced they are going to introduce a limit of 2000mg for cobalt chloride as from 1/1/2015 which i think is the same as Nsw harness.Now we just need Victoria to get serious and we maybe on the way to regaining public confidence.

2000 or 200?

[Messenger]

Brian is talking in mg Toni, our limit is 200 ug/l. I have tried a couple of conversion sites but not getting equivalents. I would however be very surprised if both codes were not on the same page

[barney]

200 sorry got carried away with the 0s

[Race For Fun]

Brian is talking in mg Toni, our limit is 200 ug/l. I have tried a couple of conversion sites but not getting equivalents. I would however be very surprised if both codes were not on the same page

Thanks Kev, that might be what's wrong with my cooking :D
Sorry Brian, we were both talking about the same level but in different ways, either way one would hope both codes would all adopt the same level.

[arlington]

Article in Harness Racing Weekly/Trotguide


Trainers Neil Day and Dean McDowell have begun a $6m deformation action against HRNSW......

[Mister JayKO]

Article in Harness Racing Weekly/Trotguide


Trainers Neil Day and Dean McDowell have begun a $6m deformation action against HRNSW......

This will end well

[barney]

Was adjourned again, both Day and Mcdowell want the chief steward stood down from the inquiry,really seems like delaying tacticts.

[kung fu man]

I like the action taken by the managers of the three tracks in this article
http://www.harnesslink.com/International/Meadowlands-Statement-on-Corey-Johnson-Using-Excessive-Cobalt

[barney]

It is quite simple if you are caught usiing this or other performance enhancing products you should be banned for a minimun 10 years which for most is a life sentence.If they know that and still use they deserve what they get.

[barney]

Peter Moody Gallops trainer has now been done for cobalt chloride

[Messenger]

Peter Moody Gallops trainer has now been done for cobalt chloride

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/peter-moody-may-face-disqualification-after-runners-positive-swab-to-cobalt-20150113-12nfqj.html

It would be stunning if he knew the result of the first sample and yet still purchased 30 yearlings last weekend

[Toohard]

Must have been a huge batch of cobalt contaminated feed delivered to some Vic thoroughbred trainers.. 2 more trainers with (multiple) positives today.:rolleyes:

[p plater]

Must have been a huge batch of cobalt contaminated feed delivered to some Vic thoroughbred trainers.. 2 more trainers with (multiple) positives today.:rolleyes:

My worry here is that the Thoroughbred Industry will get the spin doctors involved. They will look after their top line trainers for the betterment of the industry. Unlike the harness industry who take no prisoners in an effort to clean up and give the public the feeling we are as good and as clean as the thoroughbreds.
Oops .....that might change now but I doubt it.

[Messenger]

Now Moody, Kavanagh and O'Brien

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/trainers-mark-kavanagh-and-danny-obrien-have-horses-test-positive-to-cobalt-chloride-20150114-12nqj7.html

[jackthepunter]

Anyone one who thinks the same drugs that are being used in harness racing are not been used in gallops are off their heads, we race for thousands they race millions.Only differents they choose to always have and excuse and let the big boys off which will no doubt happen again.

[Messenger]

Has any Vic harness trainer had a positive Cobalt return?

[arlington]

Has any Vic harness trainer had a positive Cobalt return?


???

[Messenger]

???
Was what I meant Wayne - correct me if I am wrong but I have been surprised that there has not been a Vic harness positive, considering the number in NSW

[arlington]

Meant to type perplexing Kev. Has been a Victorian licenced trainer test positive whilst competing in NSW.


http://www.punters.com.au/news/Who-will-get-the-blame-for-the-Victorian-drug-scandal_134427/
I'll take a little of the 1001/1. Maybe a bit on Tania's better(?) half as a saver.

[jackthepunter]

Has any Vic harness trainer had a positive Cobalt return?

Given how the stewards and the joke of a rad board in vic have handel cases over the last 2years, iv got no conferdance in them what so ever, some of their decisions make me sick.

[jackthepunter]

Meant to type perplexing Kev. Has been a Victorian licenced trainer test positive whilst competing in NSW.


http://www.punters.com.au/news/Who-will-get-the-blame-for-the-Victorian-drug-scandal_134427/
I'll take a little of the 1001/1. Maybe a bit on Tania's better(?) half as a saver.

That market spot on

[cyclone george]

Given how the stewards and the joke of a rad board in vic have handel cases over the last 2years, iv got no conferdance in them what so ever, some of their decisions make me sick.

Jack I wouldn't be surprised bailey would walk if they didn't get time.he would want the book thrown at them it will just depends if he get the support he needs.

[Richard prior]

Jack I wouldn't be surprised bailey would walk if they didn't get time.he would want the book thrown at them it will just depends if he get the support he needs.
Bailey's the type of man we need in our Industry, Big Gonads!!!

[barney]

Not sure of that he has already mentioned contaminated food as possible cause

[jimmy777]

Get Reid Sanders on the job, he'll clean up the thoroughbred industry!!

[Toohard]

Not sure of that he has already mentioned contaminated food as possible cause

Think it means the Cobalt was contaminated with feed!!

Funny hey.. Harness Racing positive = throw the book at them, ban them for life, cheats, etc
Same thing thoroughbred racing = honest mistake, nothing to see here, sweep under carpet...

[Toohard]

Anyone one who thinks the same drugs that are being used in harness racing are not been used in gallops are off their heads, we race for thousands they race millions.Only differents they choose to always have and excuse and let the big boys off which will no doubt happen again.

Well said Jack!

[Mister JayKO]

Bailey's the type of man we need in our Industry, Big Gonads!!!

If you knew of some of the things he was subjected to whilst he was the chief steward of HRV, you would not blame him for leaving.

Driving the mobile home from Geelong one night, was allegedly almost forced off the road by a participant! At that point he made the decision to get out.

[Mister JayKO]

Terry Bailey mad a comment - which I agree with that the level allowed (200mg) is very lenient when you view the sample stats.

This is a litmus test for the integrity or lack of in Racing in Victoria and Australia.

[Messenger]

Terry Bailey mad a comment - which I agree with that the level allowed (200mg) is very lenient when you view the sample stats.

This is a litmus test for the integrity or lack of in Racing in Victoria and Australia.

I fear it could go the way of the litmus test for sport in general in Australia - the Aussie Rules Essendon saga

[allanjg]

i have just finished reading the sun news paper,many pages on the doping "bomb shell",i have also read the local rag the warrnambool standard from front to back and not one single word on the subject......tim auld the standards racing guru and renowned disliker of harness racing is deafening with his silence.....are there any age readers out there that can tell me if it has run any press on the doping issue....the warrnambool standard is owned by the age.

[aussiebreno]

Moody front page Courier yesterday, while Telegraph only had a small corner story. Tele had a bigger story on Waller complaining about money spent on training facilities. Had a chuckle about that one.

[p plater]

Thoroughbred horses sell newspapers, form guide, superstar jockeys, how the other half live.....They won't shoot themselves in the foot with adverse stories, I love the way harness racing always gets a mention at the bottom of the stories.
Wait for the spin doctors......it will start soon.....some poorly paid stablehand or hands will get the blame and the muti millionaire trainers will get a $30,000 fine." The Untouchables"

[G-Mac]

Can't help but think a "Joe the Cameraman" moment is coming up soon.

[DRUIDRACING]

spot on p.plater said a similar thing last night but my post was removed.

[Big Mac]

Will be interesting to see the difference in treatment from Lee & Shannon Hope compared to the 3 big names in Moody Obrien and Kavanagh

[Mighty Atom]

I suggest any horse be it harness or thoroughbred that suddenly dies from a heart attack be tested for cobalt.

[Messenger]

i have just finished reading the sun news paper,many pages on the doping "bomb shell",i have also read the local rag the warrnambool standard from front to back and not one single word on the subject......tim auld the standards racing guru and renowned disliker of harness racing is deafening with his silence.....are there any age readers out there that can tell me if it has run any press on the doping issue....the warrnambool standard is owned by the age.


Thoroughbred horses sell newspapers, form guide, superstar jockeys, how the other half live.....They won't shoot themselves in the foot with adverse stories, I love the way harness racing always gets a mention at the bottom of the stories.
Wait for the spin doctors......it will start soon.....some poorly paid stablehand or hands will get the blame and the muti millionaire trainers will get a $30,000 fine." The Untouchables"


spot on p.plater said a similar thing last night but my post was removed.

As Allan said many pages in the Sun and the main headline on the front page of The Age (Racings Black Day) plus all the first 4 pages of sport (the back 4 pages) so on this occassion you are wrong PP and D

[p plater]

I'm sorry Kev I must have missed the result of the cases, sure all media are running with the stories at the moment...it sells papers...lets see in a week or so if its still covers 4 pages as you say. If advertisers pull copy, it will fade away. I was referring to the outcome.

[Messenger]

I'm sorry Kev I must have missed the result of the cases, sure all media are running with the stories at the moment...it sells papers...lets see in a week or so if its still covers 4 pages as you say. If advertisers pull copy, it will fade away. I was referring to the outcome.
Very cute P
Really LOL


Thoroughbred horses sell newspapers, form guide, superstar jockeys, how the other half live.....They won't shoot themselves in the foot with adverse stories, I love the way harness racing always gets a mention at the bottom of the stories.
Wait for the spin doctors......it will start soon.....some poorly paid stablehand or hands will get the blame and the muti millionaire trainers will get a $30,000 fine." The Untouchables"

Front page Main Headline
Racing's Black Day

[cyclone george]

Sydney herald reporting there has been positives to cobalt in Vic harness racing at the end of last year concerning one stable

[arlington]

Sydney herald reporting there has been positives to cobalt in Vic harness racing at the end of last year concerning one stable

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-racing-victoria-to-probe-for-cobalt-doping-20150116-12rvhs.html

"I think we were the first to begin looking closely at the cobalt issue," he said. "It's an ongoing investigation and at this stage we can only confirm that we are looking closely at samples taken late last year."

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24690

HRV have been and will continue to arrange for collected swab samples to be analysed by Australian and international racing laboratories for the presence of elevated cobalt levels. Samples have been analysed dating back to 2013
With respect to retrospective testing, the fact that this threshold is established now does not prevent action from being taken under the existing rules of the time whereby evidence of the misuse of cobalt is present


Action would be under the pre-existing EPO/DPO hypoxia inducible factor rules/ruling?
If the SMH article is correct there seems to be some conflicting time frames?

[Messenger]

Wayne, are you meaning Oct 14 as opposed to Oct 1?

[arlington]

I realise it's only a quote in a newspaper article Kev, so not so much an Oct 1 v Oct 14 thing. More so if HRV will be acting if there are any positives dating back to 2013, with reference to HRV's official notice.

[Messenger]

Right, the SMH is only brief and I do not think that it contradicts the possibility of 2013 cases.
IMO however, you would think that if that was going to happen it would already have or would have to be soon as the ruling has been in 3mths now.
You would think the chances of pursuing an old positive would be much harder legally and I think would be more likely to happen if they had a post Oct14 to go with it

[p plater]

I think Vic both thoroughbred and harness were waiting for the results of the Day/McDowell numerous court challenges decisions before they considered acting.
A bit like the Race fields case.

[Messenger]

Has there been a result for that court challenge?

[p plater]

Yes Kev, there was a report in December http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=25185

There was a follow up, whereby they wanted Sanders to disqualify himself, a finding was released on 14th January (last Week) http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=25454

The inquiries have been rescheduled for Tuesday 27th January 2015

[Messenger]

Right - got you. It was the ruling not the result they were waiting on

[arlington]

For sure, awaiting the outcome of NSW harness cases and more particularly the Smith/Murray NSW thoroughbred no limit cases would be the decisive ones with pre October 2014 action. http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/darren-smith-to-be-a-test-case-before-further-cobalt-announcements-in-nsw-20150115-12r81z.html (http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/darren-smith-to-be-a-test-case-before-further-cobalt-announcements-in-nsw-20150115-12r81z.html)

http://www.racingqueensland.com.au/media-release/391/Queensland-trainers-knew-this-was-coming-Birch (http://www.racingqueensland.com.au/media-release/391/Queensland-trainers-knew-this-was-coming-Birch)

I probably had the breeding season and yearling sales period on my mind as much as racing and cobalt. Yep, a level playing field for all, as well as horse welfare the priorities with any substance abuse. The wider ramifications with the release of the HRV notification, perhaps coincidentally, at the start of the breeding season. Instilling confidence in those who were a bit indecisive about owner-breeding this season or in the future. Important when you consider declining foal numbers. Similarly the timing of the latest cobalt events, and reported HRV positive, with the yearling sales period upon us.
Portraying a strong stance against drugs, then following through does have an influence on participation rates in the breeding barn and sales ring with some breeders and buyers.

[Messenger]

Cobalt threshold needs tweaking: O'Brien

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-threshold-needs-tweaking-obrien-20150117-12si71.html

Danny O'Brien needs to read this

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/54a63ff73004de94513dc6d3

The chance that 200ug/L is a false positive is 2.25 trillion to 1
that is 2,258,000,000,000/1

These cases will go a long way towards determining the integrity of racing in Australia

[Messenger]

Good to see Bailey not entertaining any crap

http://www.racingnetwork.com.au/bailey-defends-cobalt-threshold-level/tabid/83/newsid/23594/default.aspx

[Toohard]

Has he shot himself in the foot by saying

"It appears to have happened over a period of time on a build-up of their normal race day supplements and treatments," he said.

Raceday treatments ???

[Richard prior]

Has he shot himself in the foot by saying

"It appears to have happened over a period of time on a build-up of their normal race day supplements and treatments," he said.

Raceday treatments ???
TB's must have different rules to our horses Paul.

[Toohard]

TB's must have different rules to our horses Paul.

Same rules different penalties. Nothing to see here....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Messenger]

TB's must have different rules to our horses Paul.

TB made me take two there Rich. TB = Thoroughbred + Terry Bailey !

[Messenger]

Compulsory reading

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/racings-colbalt-crisis-why-danny-obrien-and-friends-are-in-strife-20150118-12sr08.html

Quotes:

In Hong Kong, where the threshold is half that of Racing Victoria at 100, 7500 urine samples have been tested for cobalt since 2006. They showed unsupplemented horses to have urine cobalt levels in the range of five to 10, with an average level of 3.7.

The Hong Kong laboratory then performed a detailed study on a variety of legitimate cobalt supplements.

The results showed that oral supplements had virtually no effect on cobalt levels. Whilst injectable cobalt supplements did have the potential to elevate urine cobalt levels over the Hong Kong threshold, this excess over the threshold was very short-lived, lasting only six to 11 hours.

This point is lost on many in the industry. To reach the levels above 200 micrograms would mean that the horse would have to be therapeutically treated on the day of a race, which is also banned in Australia.

The result in Hong Kong caused the laboratory to propose that injectable cobalt supplements should not be given on race days.

That should not be a consideration here, as in Australia all race day treatments are against the rules.

In the US, a study has been done "doping" horses with non-proprietary cobalt from a compounding pharmacy.

In the study, after a single injection of cobalt, urine levels rose to 4000 but within 24 hours had dropped to 240, slightly above Racing Victoria's threshold of 200.

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/racings-colbalt-crisis-why-danny-obrien-and-friends-are-in-strife-20150118-12sr08.html

[kung fu man]

Compulsory reading

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/racings-colbalt-crisis-why-danny-obrien-and-friends-are-in-strife-20150118-12sr08.html

Quotes:

In Hong Kong, where the threshold is half that of Racing Victoria at 100, 7500 urine samples have been tested for cobalt since 2006. They showed unsupplemented horses to have urine cobalt levels in the range of five to 10, with an average level of 3.7.

The Hong Kong laboratory then performed a detailed study on a variety of legitimate cobalt supplements.

The results showed that oral supplements had virtually no effect on cobalt levels. Whilst injectable cobalt supplements did have the potential to elevate urine cobalt levels over the Hong Kong threshold, this excess over the threshold was very short-lived, lasting only six to 11 hours.

This point is lost on many in the industry. To reach the levels above 200 micrograms would mean that the horse would have to be therapeutically treated on the day of a race, which is also banned in Australia.

The result in Hong Kong caused the laboratory to propose that injectable cobalt supplements should not be given on race days.

That should not be a consideration here, as in Australia all race day treatments are against the rules.

In the US, a study has been done "doping" horses with non-proprietary cobalt from a compounding pharmacy.

In the study, after a single injection of cobalt, urine levels rose to 4000 but within 24 hours had dropped to 240, slightly above Racing Victoria's threshold of 200.

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/racings-colbalt-crisis-why-danny-obrien-and-friends-are-in-strife-20150118-12sr08.html
Kevin do you have a copy of the second link it seems to have been removed from the place it once was.

[arlington]

Danny's radio interview Saturday morning.
https://soundcloud.com/sen1116/danny-Obrien


"Progressive" trainers..."progressive" vets? In retrospect, maybe not so progressive in keeping up with the rules?

[allanjg]

i have just finished listening to the danny o`brien radio interview,and i must say that i have never heard so much claptrap in my life,if he and a couple of others are the "best" trainers in the industry and his vet is a leader in the profession,then my gonads are made of marble.

[Messenger]

Kevin do you have a copy of the second link it seems to have been removed from the place it once was.

It is the same as the first link Warren, it is just that I was taught to acknowledge source at top and bottom - is it coming up for you? Sometimes the same story in the Age is harder to link than the SMH

[barney]

Just seen that Colin McDowell has horses entered at Bankstown bit surprised as im sure i saw somewhere that a horse he was listed as trainer of went for cobalt chloride.This may have been a misprint i guess

[barney]

Just seen that Colin McDowell has horses entered at Bankstown bit surprised as im sure i saw somewhere that a horse he was listed as trainer of went for cobalt chloride.This may have been a misprint i guess

Did see it on 2/6/14 Butterfly princess 200 which is allowable limit so must not have been charged .Just for interest same horse 22/7 reading was 42

[Mister JayKO]

This will be a landmark case make no mistake. If you are following it via various forums there is two very distinct schools of thought. In the Red Corner, we have The Realists - who can quote some of the excellent work done by The NSW stewards lead by Reid Sanders and the data collected which would seem to disprove the ability for a horse to get the false negative proposed by Danny O'Brien and co. Terry Bailey and co will have a massive fight on their hands given who he is up against.

In the Blue Corner, we have the deniers and or the establishment - three of the biggest names in the game. The red corner will be severely tested by legalistic argument if you follow the lead of some other forums. This could well mirror the drawn ASADA / Essendon saga in terms of time and wasted lawyers fees.

I am no scientist or lawyer, but if following the testing done by HRNSW is anything to go by, then I would form the view that 200 is a more than acceptable limit given the data.

I read with interest the comments made by Danny O'Brien regarding "standard practices". Since when did it become standard practice to give a racehorse of any description an IV Drip full of supplements! How can you expect hobby trainer Joe Blow to compete with these jokers who employ full time vets pumping horses full of God knows what via IV drips?

Everyone wants a level playing field, when Lance Armstrong was outed - it confirmed a lot of what I had been thinking for a long time. Several people have looked to discredit journalists like Andrew Rule, but to my mind he doesn't get involved unless he believes there is a story - dead men tell no tales, but it is hard to discredit the work he has done with regard to harness racing in the past. When you see horses continually "improved" by trainers you have to ask questions. The chemists will always be one step ahead of the testers - but by sharing information between jurisdictions you can close the gap. Bottom line if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..........
The threshold was introduced on April 1, trainers were warned about the use of supplements and treatments that contained cobalt when the threshold was released. How Danny O'Brien can claim he had never heard of cobalt until a week ago is frankly preposterous. Has he been living under a rock?

I am a realist, for the sake of both industries, the right outcome needs to be reached. To my mind that is if they test over 200mg per litre of urine and knowingly gave the treatments (which O'Brien has admitted to) then it should be very clear cut.

The sooner the threshold is brought down to 100mg the better. It's also intriguing to not the potential crossover use of lasix to offset the potential downside of cobalt.

Just how many horses run around on bone and muscle these dayside? Or am I naive to suggest that some still do?

[Amlin]

I agree Stu - hands up who cares for the animal anymore? (many do I know but the actions of those that don't will do their best to ruin it for everyone else)


It's a funny thing - we make these animals run, and if they don't run as fast as we need we then whip them and fill them full of drugs to get them to do what we want - even if they just are not capable in the first place.

[Messenger]

This will be a landmark case make no mistake. If you are following it via various forums there is two very distinct schools of thought. In the Red Corner, we have The Realists - who can quote some of the excellent work done by The NSW stewards lead by Reid Sanders and the data collected which would seem to disprove the ability for a horse to get the false negative proposed by Danny O'Brien and co. Terry Bailey and co will have a massive fight on their hands given who he is up against.

In the Blue Corner, we have the deniers and or the establishment - three of the biggest names in the game. The red corner will be severely tested by legalistic argument if you follow the lead of some other forums. This could well mirror the drawn ASADA / Essendon saga in terms of time and wasted lawyers fees.

I am no scientist or lawyer, but if following the testing done by HRNSW is anything to go by, then I would form the view that 200 is a more than acceptable limit given the data.

I read with interest the comments made by Danny O'Brien regarding "standard practices". Since when did it become standard practice to give a racehorse of any description an IV Drip full of supplements! How can you expect hobby trainer Joe Blow to compete with these jokers who employ full time vets pumping horses full of God knows what via IV drips?

Everyone wants a level playing field, when Lance Armstrong was outed - it confirmed a lot of what I had been thinking for a long time. Several people have looked to discredit journalists like Andrew Rule, but to my mind he doesn't get involved unless he believes there is a story - dead men tell no tales, but it is hard to discredit the work he has done with regard to harness racing in the past. When you see horses continually "improved" by trainers you have to ask questions. The chemists will always be one step ahead of the testers - but by sharing information between jurisdictions you can close the gap. Bottom line if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..........
The threshold was introduced on April 1, trainers were warned about the use of supplements and treatments that contained cobalt when the threshold was released. How Danny O'Brien can claim he had never heard of cobalt until a week ago is frankly preposterous. Has he been living under a rock?

I am a realist, for the sake of both industries, the right outcome needs to be reached. To my mind that is if they test over 200mg per litre of urine and knowingly gave the treatments (which O'Brien has admitted to) then it should be very clear cut.

The sooner the threshold is brought down to 100mg the better. It's also intriguing to not the potential crossover use of lasix to offset the potential downside of cobalt.

Just how many horses run around on bone and muscle these dayside? Or am I naive to suggest that some still do?
You are understating it when you say 'more than acceptable' Stu (I do note that you later suggest 100 - I think it is Ug not mg)
You could say 'unbelievably generous'
I will put this link up again as it states the chances of a false positive of 200ug/L
as over 2 TRILLION to 1
that is a 2 with twelve zeros after it
or to quote the table exactly
2258000000000/1

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/54a63ff73004de94513dc6d3

[arlington]

RE post #394 Hands up the silent majority Kyle? But mindful that whips and cobalt are two different things. We do have whip rules too, as you know, and participants try to adhere. I'd say stats would be 99% adherence. Plus, and this is without the spin we're seeing from the O'Brien & Co corner, whips are still needed for safety reasons. An unruly horse needing a bit of direction.


RE post #393 Well said Mister JayKO. Your sentiments should be the knock out punch to those in the Blue Corner.
One major aspect of cobalt supplementation that is, perhaps intentionally, being avoided by the Blue Corner is what Wade Birch Racing Qld Chief of Integrity reiterated this morning on racing radio RSN. That being out of competition/non race day testing. And the Vic rules are 200mcg race and non race day. Considering Danny making public his treatment regime and that international studies/research/ qualified opinions indicate long term cobalt jugging gives the EPO effect, one might question Danny & Co's protests of innocence big time. And there lays another facet. 200mcg race day won't catch the more knowledgeable Blue Corner participants from gaining an illegal advantage.

Just have to bring up hobby trainers, and yes echo Mister JayKO's emotive sentiments, and it's not always a case of " how can...". 'Jugging' has been around for decades. Justified in many genuine therapeutic instances. It may well just be a hobby trainer chooses not to go down the "progressive" course of concoctions. No doubt there are participants whose incomes aren't primarily derived from horse racing that have excellent vets, knowledgeable in many aspects of equine performance. The costs involved in getting the vet out not always a factor. Besides, it's not inhumane or illegal for a person to have gained skills under a vet's supervision or maybe they are a vet nurse or know such a person. They just want the sport to be a sport, a competition involving man and beast. May the best horse win, not the "best" vet. I can hear the Blue Corner, "a dinosaur, Buckley's hope of winning mate". But as Stu has alluded to, who didn't stand back, shook their head in disbelief with the unravelling of the Essendon supplement program.


Andrew Rule, love him or hate him. My thoughts, we've lived in the era of litigation for a decade or so. I'd think his editor would have the nod on what's published and would imagine the legal dept speed dial button is hit before the stories come out.

[Boydy]

I think that Cobalt in general sheds some light on the racing industry as a whole. Firstly I believe both codes should have done substantially more testing on the use of legitimate supplements and both there side effects, withholding period and whether the products do actually have any benefits.
Firstly, I refer to the testing conducted by HRNSW. The tests were done on 5 horses over 4 days. The testing on the horses was primarily conducted on blood samples as obviously urine cannot be taken at as regular intervals however the limits have been set on urine. If you have an alcoholic drink the effect on the blood and what comes out at the bottom end are surely not compatible so how is this information in anyway useful to setting a threshold with relation to retention periods. Despite this the urine tests after just 3 days of administration of 10ml Hemo 15 (Relatively small dose and a totally legal supplement) on two horses were over 200ug/L on the third day, but the raw data with levels in urine and time of sample have never been released. It appears that if treated regularly with a cobalt containing product there is definitely build up in cobalt retention over time and how substantial this has never been tested or proven.

http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/restricted/pdf/hru/hru011715.pdf

The article above about cobalt states some interesting information. A couple of interesting quotes from the article.

"Cobalt's reputation as a performance enhancer is likely over-exaggerated and is not supported by evidence."

"Currently, the California rule for Standardbreds testing higher than 25 ppb calls for the horse to be put on the vet's list until the animal clears its system of cobalt. Because the half-life of cobalt in the equine bloodstream is one week, a horse might not be able to race for up to two months."

The above comments do not in my opinion support information we are being given here in Australia, with firstly the drug being a Category 1 as well as the withholding period of Cobalt and there supplements. There is no doubt that some of the information in the article appears distressing but how can you tell the difference between Cobaly Chloride being directly injected and normal approved Cobalt containing supplements if they too can get over the threshold.

Lastly the article Controlling the Misuse of Cobalt in Horses and the associated research, recommends an out of raceday limit of 2000ug/Litre so it does not seem that levels of 2000ug/Litre are anywhere near dangerous or fatal so this is just hysteria. Also the research and paper in the Introduction states that the administering of these cobalt containg supplements should be banned not just on race day but the day prior to race day also, so perhaps this should be given as information and also included in be made into a local rule of harness racing.

[Messenger]

I think that Cobalt in general sheds some light on the racing industry as a whole. Firstly I believe both codes should have done substantially more testing on the use of legitimate supplements and both there side effects, withholding period and whether the products do actually have any benefits.
Firstly, I refer to the testing conducted by HRNSW. The tests were done on 5 horses over 4 days. The testing on the horses was primarily conducted on blood samples as obviously urine cannot be taken at as regular intervals however the limits have been set on urine. If you have an alcoholic drink the effect on the blood and what comes out at the bottom end are surely not compatible so how is this information in anyway useful to setting a threshold with relation to retention periods. Despite this the urine tests after just 3 days of administration of 10ml Hemo 15 (Relatively small dose and a totally legal supplement) on two horses were over 200ug/L on the third day, but the raw data with levels in urine and time of sample have never been released. It appears that if treated regularly with a cobalt containing product there is definitely build up in cobalt retention over time and how substantial this has never been tested or proven.

http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/restricted/pdf/hru/hru011715.pdf

The article above about cobalt states some interesting information. A couple of interesting quotes from the article.

"Cobalt's reputation as a performance enhancer is likely over-exaggerated and is not supported by evidence."

"Currently, the California rule for Standardbreds testing higher than 25 ppb calls for the horse to be put on the vet's list until the animal clears its system of cobalt. Because the half-life of cobalt in the equine bloodstream is one week, a horse might not be able to race for up to two months."

The above comments do not in my opinion support information we are being given here in Australia, with firstly the drug being a Category 1 as well as the withholding period of Cobalt and there supplements. There is no doubt that some of the information in the article appears distressing but how can you tell the difference between Cobaly Chloride being directly injected and normal approved Cobalt containing supplements if they too can get over the threshold.

Lastly the article Controlling the Misuse of Cobalt in Horses and the associated research, recommends an out of raceday limit of 2000ug/Litre so it does not seem that levels of 2000ug/Litre are anywhere near dangerous or fatal so this is just hysteria. Also the research and paper in the Introduction states that the administering of these cobalt containg supplements should be banned not just on race day but the day prior to race day also, so perhaps this should be given as information and also included in be made into a local rule of harness racing.

What do you make of this then, when you claim there can be a build up

The results showed that oral supplements had virtually no effect on cobalt levels. Whilst injectable cobalt supplements did have the potential to elevate urine cobalt levels over the Hong Kong threshold, this excess over the threshold was very short-lived, lasting only six to 11 hours.

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/racings-colbalt-crisis-why-danny-obrien-and-friends-are-in-strife-20150118-12sr08.html



As far as doubts about Cobalt being a performance enhancer

I am happy with the anecdotal evidence that NSW's highest readings were taken from winners

There is nothing positive to be said about cobalt in that link Boydy but somehow you sound like you think there is

[kung fu man]

I think that Cobalt in general sheds some light on the racing industry as a whole. Firstly I believe both codes should have done substantially more testing on the use of legitimate supplements and both there side effects, withholding period and whether the products do actually have any benefits.
Firstly, I refer to the testing conducted by HRNSW. The tests were done on 5 horses over 4 days. The testing on the horses was primarily conducted on blood samples as obviously urine cannot be taken at as regular intervals however the limits have been set on urine. If you have an alcoholic drink the effect on the blood and what comes out at the bottom end are surely not compatible so how is this information in anyway useful to setting a threshold with relation to retention periods. Despite this the urine tests after just 3 days of administration of 10ml Hemo 15 (Relatively small dose and a totally legal supplement) on two horses were over 200ug/L on the third day, but the raw data with levels in urine and time of sample have never been released. It appears that if treated regularly with a cobalt containing product there is definitely build up in cobalt retention over time and how substantial this has never been tested or proven.

http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/restricted/pdf/hru/hru011715.pdf

The article above about cobalt states some interesting information. A couple of interesting quotes from the article.

"Cobalt's reputation as a performance enhancer is likely over-exaggerated and is not supported by evidence."

"Currently, the California rule for Standardbreds testing higher than 25 ppb calls for the horse to be put on the vet's list until the animal clears its system of cobalt. Because the half-life of cobalt in the equine bloodstream is one week, a horse might not be able to race for up to two months."

The above comments do not in my opinion support information we are being given here in Australia, with firstly the drug being a Category 1 as well as the withholding period of Cobalt and there supplements. There is no doubt that some of the information in the article appears distressing but how can you tell the difference between Cobaly Chloride being directly injected and normal approved Cobalt containing supplements if they too can get over the threshold.

Lastly the article Controlling the Misuse of Cobalt in Horses and the associated research, recommends an out of raceday limit of 2000ug/Litre so it does not seem that levels of 2000ug/Litre are anywhere near dangerous or fatal so this is just hysteria. Also the research and paper in the Introduction states that the administering of these cobalt containg supplements should be banned not just on race day but the day prior to race day also, so perhaps this should be given as information and also included in be made into a local rule of harness racing.
This is from courtcase evidencs:
Mr Sanders corresponded with Terence Wan, the head of Racing Laboratory in Hong Kong whom Dr Wainscott regarded as one of the world's leading racing analysts. On 16 August 2013 Mr Wan sent an email to Mr Sanders in which he referred to the complication of 'normal use' of supplements containing cobalt. He also said:
"For raceday samples, as long as your rules prohibit all forms of injections on a raceday, a reasonable unpublished threshold might be considered at 60 µg/L in urine (based on a population of 981 samples and a risk of 1 in 10,000) or even 100 µg/L."

[Boydy]

Kevin, Like I said in the previous post the tests were only conducted with 10mg of Hemo -15 over 3 days. Why not give 20mg over 7 days? Nobody knows because the testing was never done. What would happen if a horse had 3 runs in 7 days and had a prerace shot of Hemo 15 the day before each start? Again it has never been tested and proven otherwise. Kevin, I ask you this question how many horses are tested for urine (not blood - prerace) that do not win. I don't need you to answer because I know the answer is virtually zero. Again, information can be manipulated any way you want.

Warren, of course the comments are based on the vet from Hong Kong a closed shot in terms of treatments given to horse. But as I have said above has HK ever had a horse that has been treated pre race day and had 4-5 starts in a fortnight. The answer is obviously NO. The HRNSW experiment clearly shows there is a cumulative effect from multiple treatments and as many harness horses race at much closer intervals than HK gallopers the appropriate research has never been conducted.

[Messenger]

Why not give 20mcg over 7 days? It is sounding more like chemistry class than horse-racing Adam

[p plater]

3 run in a week or 4-5 runs in a fortnight...harness yes, thoroughbreds never.

[Messenger]

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/racing-victoria-must-protect-horses-welfare-over-cobalt-doping-20150120-12u7u5.html

For those who suggested that the newspapers would let the Cobalt story slide, you had better believe that The Age does not want to.
Chief racing writer, Patrick Bartley, would seem to be mirroring the approach that chief footballer writer Caroline Wilson took to the Essendon doping scandal
As Caro rightly kept player welfare to the fore, it is good to see Patrick honing in on animal welfare.

(I reckon he has read your link Boydy - I would not be totally surprised if this thread put him onto it)

[Boydy]

Bailey that's my point exactly, comparing apples with oranges.
Kevin, it is naive to think that chemistry does not play s part in all racing and sport in general.
I have to admit I have a vested interest in this issue.
Out of all the positives in NSW I believe there is one genuinely innocent participant. The big issue is withholding periods. Imagine if you gave a horse a start and it received a positive swab due to the hotse husbandry of the previous trainer. The facts will eventually come out.
As for the story in the Age what a beat up. Let's ban all horse supplements, and jumps racing

[Messenger]

If you take the two extremes - open slather v banning all supplements. (I have caught the exaggeration bug too)
It would be an interesting debate.
Believe me, I am not naive about what goes on in racing - it does not mean we have to like the infiltration of chemistry
Seeing as though you want to throw in jumps racing - if we are not careful with the public image of racing it could become as scorned upon as much as jumps racing (correctly or incorrectly)

[Richard prior]

3 run in a week or 4-5 runs in a fortnight...harness yes, thoroughbreds never.
2 Runs on the same day here sometimes and 3 in The Little Brown Jug on the odd occasion.

[Danno]

Bailey that's my point exactly, comparing apples with oranges.
Kevin, it is naive to think that chemistry does not play s part in all racing and sport in general.
I have to admit I have a vested interest in this issue.
Out of all the positives in NSW I believe there is one genuinely innocent participant. The big issue is withholding periods. Imagine if you gave a horse a start and it received a positive swab due to the hotse husbandry of the previous trainer. The facts will eventually come out.
As for the story in the Age what a beat up. Let's ban all horse supplements, and jumps racing

Adam old mate, there is always the "innocent victim" my father inlaw worked in the correction system for 40 years and he can tell you he never met a prisoner who admitted guilt!! TRUE!!.
I see a few red herrings in your argument as well,...."build up" "ban Jumps", seriously mate I have been around for a while and have seen all manner of defense for the guilty ( who wish to be protrayed as victims), that is why the rules changed a while ago to "no treatment of ANY kind on raceday", and mate if you think all trainers are adhereing to that rule you are living is disneyland, MANY have "husbandry" techiques finely tuned in order to reduce the chances of detection.

the no treatment rule on raceday was brought in to try and reduce the cheating because it is so F___ing prevalent by "progressive" trainers, people who prefer that term to cheats.

cheers,
Dan

[Danno]

2 Runs on the same day here sometimes and 3 in The Little Brown Jug on the odd occasion.

Hey Rich,
I raced a horse twice on the same nightime program years ago.... he got smashed in the first one and came out an hour an a half later and brained them!!! and guess what!!! he hadn't had an ASPRO!!!!, but he was fit for the assignment and raced accordingly.

[Race For Fun]

We need to keep the trots and the gallops seperate as at the end of the day one has nothing to do with the other when it comes to the way positive swabs are handled and what is classed as a positive. The trots have a few rules that they up hold when dealing with a positive swab, 1. It is the trainers responsibility to present all horses free of drugs for all races. 2. No drugs of any types to be administered to any horse that is engaged in a race on race day. End of section. When you renew your licence you agree to these rules. End of section.

Any trainer who starts a horse that has come from another trainer (who failed a swab himself) only a few days earlier does so at their own risk, the days of doing that ended years ago when swabbing procedures improved. In years gone by trainers won premierships with the help of some horses that they only saw on race day.

Comes a time when people who don't abide by the rules of harness racing should be removed for a while. At the end of the day the rules are there to not only try to keep everyone on a level playing field but also to uphold the integrity of the industry. The fact that some people don't agree with rules and or levels set by the Australian or state body is ok as long as the stewards keep catching them.

[kung fu man]

It doesnt matter if you race once a fortnight or five times in five days if you take a chance and come undone you still gave the supplement? and you still broke the rules , if your fair dinkum you would stop feeding anything that has Cobalt but some people are just greedy!!

[teecee]

Hey Rich,
I raced a horse twice on the same nightime program years ago.... he got smashed in the first one and came out an hour an a half later and brained them!!! and guess what!!! he hadn't had an ASPRO!!!!, but he was fit for the assignment and raced accordingly.


Were you asked to explain the "improved performance" of the horse (or the driver if that fits)???!!!!!:D

[Mister JayKO]

I am of the opinion that horse racing in Australia is on the slippery slope and is mirroring what has happened in the States, yet we seem hell bent on replicating the same mistakes they have made. Integrity is the core issue - to betting, to ownership, to breeding the whole shebang. Without a perception that most things are above board you cannot expect anything to improve. To me it would appear that the big 3 will most likely get out of this on a technicality and that will have a flow on effect to both industries but more importantly - the flow on to the most important people, punters, potential owners and breeders can only be negative.

I hope I am wrong.

[Danno]

Were you asked to explain the "improved performance" of the horse (or the driver if that fits)???!!!!!:D

Ya can't run without legs Teecee, and he had his taken on the home turn, but we can blame the driver if you like!!!:p

[Danno]

I am of the opinion that horse racing in Australia is on the slippery slope and is mirroring what has happened in the States, yet we seem hell bent on replicating the same mistakes they have made. Integrity is the core issue - to betting, to ownership, to breeding the whole shebang. Without a perception that most things are above board you cannot expect anything to improve. To me it would appear that the big 3 will most likely get out of this on a technicality and that will have a flow on effect to both industries but more importantly - the flow on to the most important people, punters, potential owners and breeders can only be negative.

I hope I am wrong.

Couldn't agrre more with your assessment of a) the dominant causal? issue and b) why do we keep copying the mistakes of the septics?

[Messenger]

It is bloody sad.
I am not sure the racing industry can win.
Being a realist - sweeping it under the carpet might be simpler as most of the general public will not remember this 2 days later
While taking a strong broom to the lot may not convince the public. There would be headlines like ' Was Black Caviar the equine Lance?'
What we have in our favour is that most punters are addicted but sponsors may be harder to come by.

[Boydy]

Dan I normally have a respect for your opinion but I promise on this one you do not know all of the facts. Every case should be assessed on its merits and if trainers are proven to be injecting horses with little white bottles labelled "Water for Horses" with unknown contents, then beyond cobalt they are actually injecting the horse with a totally unapproved substance and 20 years is to good for them.
However, does HRNSW truly know how long cobalt stays in the system and does one of these supplements need to be given race day. In my opinion the evidence is non existent. Injecting 10ml Hemo 15 for 3 days on 5 horses is hardly compelling proof. I wish that when the horses got positives that the stewards took samples from the horses and tested them to see what the levels were and monitored with regards the retention period. Or maybe they have in some circumstances and have not released the information.
As for the jumps racing reference if you don't understand I am talking about the sensationalism of the media on negatives in all forms of racing then have a think about it.

[Race For Fun]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/racing-nsw-to-press-on-with-licensing-vets-20150118-12sqgm.html

Could this lead to vets being blamed for positives as well as the trainer? Does it allow for the trainer to "share the blame"?

[Race For Fun]

If this is already here sorry....

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/michael-hardy-withdraws-cobalt-appeal-20150117-12s9ot.html

[Messenger]

If this is already here sorry....

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/michael-hardy-withdraws-cobalt-appeal-20150117-12s9ot.html

Neither of your links have been posted previously so thanks Toni.
Always thought the SMH was the same as The Age but that second link is pretty much harness news and our Age NEVER does harness

[Pena]

"We class our drugs and were a little unsure of where it fitted, so initially it was put between a class 1 and 2. But as the science has become more clear it has been moved into the class 1 category."

This must be a joke never been more unclear from what I can see!! Delusional

[arlington]

OTI Racing, Terry Henderson and Simon O'Donnell's views.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/npzlzyrc84xyh96/OTI%20Special%20Edition%20Newsletter.pdf?dl=0

[Messenger]

Patrick Bartley continues the pursuit

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/veterinarians-warn-of-cobalt-dangers-20150122-12vyux.html

Quote:

The EVA advises members to be extremely careful with any supplement that contains cobalt, and to avoid the use of unregistered compounded products.

The warning about unregistered products is significant because there is substantial evidence available from the Harness NSW cobalt cases last year.

Harness Racing commissioned a scientific study on the supplements last year which showed that while a couple of horses in the study went slightly over the threshold, the elevation over the threshold was small and for a very short time – in the order of hours.

In this study, the supplements used were registered but they needed to be used contrary to the manufacturers recommendations, being used frequently and excessively to get over the threshold.

Most significantly, super concentrated unlicensed, black market cobalt was identified as being used in the NSW cobalt cases.

[p plater]

The racing world will be watching HRNSW today as the Day/McDowell inquiry is scheduled to resume today

[Boydy]

Kevin,

Hate for the facts to get in the way of a good story.

The facts are the HRNSW test horses in NSW were given 10ml of Hemo-15 for 3 days.

Attached is the fact sheet for Hemo-15 it recommends 1ml per 50kg, so 10ml is not excessive.
http://www.virbac.com.au/home/horse-owner/products/blood-building/hemo-15-pis.html

Secondly there are no recommendations for the frequency of the injections, but it is recommended for horse in training, so again the facts are getting in the way of the story somebody is trying to sell but the literature does not concur.

Thirdly did HRNSW or HRA ever issue a statement with regards the use of the supplements??

[Messenger]

Here is a fact from the EVA for you Adam


http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/veterinarians-warn-of-cobalt-dangers-20150122-12vyux.html


The email from Equine Veterinarians Australia, titled "Important Members Alert – Cobalt", may have inadvertently added fuel to the fire as to who might be involved in Victoria's cobalt doping saga.

The email states that since the reports there has been a great deal of media commentary on the issue, most of it negative.

It points out that "horses require very small amounts of cobalt for correct function and those amounts can be found in a balanced diet.


so maybe people need to find the best horse not the best chemist

[Boydy]

Kevin,

Appears that you like to read small snippets of the story and not the whole article.

The EVA has no issue with the use of the supplements as long as they are;
"In response to this, the AEV email details: only products registered for use in horses be administered; the dose and frequency of administration should be consistent with manufacturers' recommendations; injectable supplements should not be administered on consecutive days and not be administered within one clear day of racing."
The test conducted by HRNSW the horses were administered as per the manufacturers recommendation, dosage 1ml per 50kg and no restrictions on daily use. There is no mention from the manufacturers with regards no consecutive days.

The facts are that if the authorities are so concerned about the misuse of Cobalt why don't they simply ban the use of all cobalt containing supplements?? Plain and simple answer and why have the authorities taken this approach??

[Messenger]

Bailey that's my point exactly, comparing apples with oranges.
Kevin, it is naive to think that chemistry does not play s part in all racing and sport in general.
I have to admit I have a vested interest in this issue.
Out of all the positives in NSW I believe there is one genuinely innocent participant. The big issue is withholding periods. Imagine if you gave a horse a start and it received a positive swab due to the hotse husbandry of the previous trainer. The facts will eventually come out.
As for the story in the Age what a beat up. Let's ban all horse supplements, and jumps racing
Another snippet for you Adam ;)

[Danno]

Adam, I'm not keen on getting further involved in this debate, I hung up my boots on it a while ago after doing a lot of work to substantitate my beliefs and subsequent statements, but I am going to say this one last thing, which is pretty much a mirror image of what I was saying very early in this affair, it's a REAL problem, HRNSW have not gone off half cocked here, there has been an awful lot of work done in order to arrive at levels that can be proven beyound any doubt that a) the horse has been administered with something other than large doses of regular supplements and b) the substance had been administered inside the current restrictions.

You can believe whatever you like mate, that's your choice.

cheers,
Dan

[barney]

A little bit of subject but the sport would be better off if all supplements were banned within 7 days of racing level playing field for everyone.Willn't happen but can dream i guess.

[arlington]

A little bit of subject but the sport would be better off if all supplements were banned within 7 days of racing level playing field for everyone.Willn't happen but can dream i guess.



If you get a chance, read the link in post #421 barney. OTI Racing's thoughts.

[barney]

The Day McDowell inquiry has been adjourned until 25 /2/15

[Race For Fun]

The Day McDowell inquiry has been adjourned until 25 /2/15

Will this ever end?

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/neil-day-and-dean-mcdowell-cobalt-cases-on-hold-again-20150128-130e60.html

[Race For Fun]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-irregularities-found-in-queensland-horses-20150130-13216l.html

[Messenger]

With the articles, reporting the arrest of Victorian harness racing participants, claiming a Victorian participant is thought to be supplying Cobalt - it seems remarkable that there has not been a trainer suspended in Victoria for a positive to cobalt

[barney]

Just read that and no names released so all trainers now have a stigma over them if they have positives Name them and then put them out to the hearing like Nsw have.Mood y Kavanagh and Price still training as if nothing has happened.

[arlington]

With the articles, reporting the arrest of Victorian harness racing participants, claiming a Victorian participant is thought to be supplying Cobalt - it seems remarkable that there has not been a trainer suspended in Victoria for a positive to cobalt


As for apparent inaction Kev, I'd say the outcomes of the McDowell/Day harness racing court action and Darren Smith thoroughbred hearing will determine where HRV go. Once again a money thing, could Victorian harness racing cop a seven figure legal expense right now?

[barney]

eWayne if it is illegal and they have positives why not charge them and suspend them.The way i read it the Mcdowell Day case now is more about the Steward rather than the cobalt chloride charge.Maybe wrong but hope not.

[Messenger]

But that would be as weak as @#%^ / water Wayne. I am only talking about announcing the results of any swabs.
If they are afraid to do that because of the NSW court case and that case dragged on for a year, a trainer that knew he had a positive pending could adopt an 'in for a penny - in for a pound approach'

[barney]

At present going by the linkk 3 trainers in Queensland have positives but names not released for the reason presumption of innnocence yet all other trainers have a cloud hanging over them.If they have positives and been advised let the public know to protect the innocent.

[Race For Fun]

Must say that I find it hard to understand why someone with a cobalt positive swab (a sample) is allowed to carry on as normal in Qld. Seems unfair for other owners and trainers to still be trying to win races. Why would anyone want to have a bet in Qld at the moment?

I would rather see the honest participants protected not the suspect ones.

[barney]

Agree wholeheartadly and what i have been saying you are in the industry and you say that what will people who are not in the industry say.

[Chariots]

I know everyone is after blood but you cannot expect any authority to stand someone down unless they are 100% certain that the case will be proven.


This denial of natural justice would lead to legal action by the accused in the event of them being found not guilty.


In the Cramp case obviously HRV feel that they have enough undeniable evidence to stand them down pending the full inquiry.

[Messenger]

I know everyone is after blood but you cannot expect any authority to stand someone down unless they are 100% certain that the case will be proven.


This denial of natural justice would lead to legal action by the accused in the event of them being found not guilty.


In the Cramp case obviously HRV feel that they have enough undeniable evidence to stand them down pending the full inquiry.

I hear what you are saying Ray but as a licensed person don't you agree to abide by the licensing body's rules
The Cramps have been stood down under rule 183

Victoria Police advising that criminal charges have been issued against licenced harness racing trainers Shayne Cramp and Greg Cramp.
Upon receiving this advice, HRV Stewards have invoked the provisions of Australian Rule of Harness Racing 183 and suspended the licences of Mr Shayne Cramp and Mr Greg Cramp with immediate effect. No horse trained or owned by Mr Shayne Cramp or Mr Greg Cramp is able to race or trial.

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=25605

183. Pending the outcome of an inquiry, investigation or objection, or where a person has been charged with an offence, the Stewards may direct one or more of the following -

(a) that a horse shall not be nominated for or compete in a race;

(b) that a driver shall not drive or otherwise take part in a race;

(c) that the horses of certain connections shall not be nominated for or start in a race;

(d) that a licence or any other type of authority or permission be suspended.


http://www.harness.org.au/rules/INQRY.HTM

It does not predispose that they will necessarily be found guilty

[Race For Fun]

I hear what you are saying Ray but as a licensed person don't you agree to abide by the licensing body's rules
The Cramps have been stood down under rule 183


Yes you do and I think rule 183 is the same rule NSW stewards have used to stand down trainers with cobalt positives pending full enquiries. So the question is why haven't Qld used that national rule?

[barney]

For some reason Wade Birch has put the presumption of innonce above the interests of other industry participants at present all trainers have it hanging over there heads.

[teecee]

Yes you do and I think rule 183 is the same rule NSW stewards have used to stand down trainers with cobalt positives pending full enquiries. So the question is why haven't Qld used that national rule?



183. Pending the outcome of an inquiry, investigation or objection, or where a person has been charged with an offence, the Stewards MAY direct one or more of the following -

(a) that a horse shall not be nominated for or compete in a race;

(b) that a driver shall not drive or otherwise take part in a race;

(c) that the horses of certain connections shall not be nominated for or start in a race;

(d) that a licence or any other type of authority or permission be suspended.

[Race For Fun]

183. Pending the outcome of an inquiry, investigation or objection, or where a person has been charged with an offence, the Stewards MAY direct one or more of the following -

(a) that a horse shall not be nominated for or compete in a race;

(b) that a driver shall not drive or otherwise take part in a race.

(c) that the horses of certain connections shall not be nominated for or start in a race;

(d) that a licence or any other type of authority or permission be suspended.


Yes that's the rule I mentioned. As I wrote l asked the question WHY Qld had not made use of that rule. I understand that Qld have the option as to whether they enforce the rule but I wonder why when cobalt is classed as a class 1 drug. I would think that there may be some Qld trainers also asking the same question with what has happened in NSW.

[Messenger]

Analysts, vets to call for halving cobalt limit.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/racing-analysts-vets-criticise-generous-cobalt-limit-20150203-135546.html

The trainers with positives over 200 would seem to be in a lot of trouble to me

[arlington]

Analysts, vets to call for halving cobalt limit.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/racing-analysts-vets-criticise-generous-cobalt-limit-20150203-135546.html

The trainers with positives over 200 would seem to be in a lot of trouble to me


Aren't they already in trouble Kev? 100 would seem to be beneficial in counteracting the non race day/cumulative administration for the EPO effect.

[HISGEN65]

Yes that's the rule I mentioned. As I wrote l asked the question WHY Qld had not made use of that rule. I understand that Qld have the option as to whether they enforce the rule but I wonder why when cobalt is classed as a class 1 drug. I would think that there may be some Qld trainers also asking the same question with what has happened in NSW.

no sure whats going on up here Toni..a trainer suggested to me the other night that maybe it is so wide spread across the sport the authoritys are progressing forward very very carefully..who knows,I tend to stick to myself these days & worry about my own backyard...i will say one thing,i dont know whether its coincidence or not but I have noticed the playing field seemingly getting leveller of late(just look at some of the results the last month)..massive drop in those "big runs" carpark half the trip to the death & then first to the winning post etc..if it is a result of what is happening behind closed doors I applaud the efforts & acknowledge how difficult some of these cases can get legal wise as I am sure everyone doesnt want to see the big fish get away through lawyers,loopholes,rushed hearings & money..at the end of the day thats all we want,a level playing field & EVERYONE regardless who they are or who they are "backed" by gets treated & penalised the same way..

[allanjg]

after whats happened in vic in the last few days with the 5 arrests and also books and papers been taken by the "squad", i am thinking that there might be a few trainers of all codes walking around with their hands in their pockets, eyes to the ground and kicking the dirt on the ground.

[niloc]

i have a simple solution to suspected skullduggery,ban all families ,why do we get such domination in harness racing in many of our states?is this purely coincidental that our industry suffers in the end because of what appears to be a monopoly in various racing centres. Many appear from nowhere, others appear from relative obscurity and all of a sudden seem to have gained miraculous training regimes that your average hard working trainers can not compete with.Perhaps i'm being too much of the cynic but many of these people have direct contact with North America.We need to employ people specifically who have law and enforcement experience in these areas not some people who's hearts are in the right places but in their heads are out of their class.all who love this sport want a level playing field and never want to hear derogatory terms such as'the red hots' etc.

[Messenger]

We all know you post tongue-in-cheek. Don't forget families dominate in most forms of industry - some good/some bad. It is fairly usual for children to follow in their parents' footsteps
As far as employing people with law and enforcement experience, I am pretty sure that we often have

[gutwagon]

I was told by a reliable source that several big name Victorian trainers were issued with notices regarding excessive cobalt levels just last week. I was told names but I won't repeat them . I must say that their runners in the last week seem to have lost a leg ! If it's true it will rock the sport, has anyone else herd any similar whispers ?

[Messenger]

If we could only get rid of all the cheats. I look at the top of the Vic premiership tables for the last decade and see it riddled with cheats - sickening

[p plater]

I've heard 2 names.....1 not surprised but the 2nd shocked me

[gutwagon]

Lets hope we can have a" level playing field " sooner rather than later !

[allanjg]

hi rick,i myself being involved in the harness racing industry,through owners,trainers,farriers,horse chiropractors,vets ,feed suppliers and even the visiting harness goods salesman the information that we gather is staggering....twelve months ago we were told to watch certain trainers and their "champs"....the cramp saga,we new about months ago....we just said they will GO,and they have...there are big names out there that have rode the wave of success through the use of dope at the expense of the owner trainers and the not so big time profession trainers,i myself,and few other concerned owner trainers and those people that have an interest in harness racing, really do hope that the authorities keep up the pressure on the cheats that they know about but can`t take the appropiate action until they have a solid case..... i have a lot more that i could say but i don`t want carhill stepping in....

[barney]

I was told by a reliable source that several big name Victorian trainers were issued with notices regarding excessive cobalt levels just last week. I was told names but I won't repeat them . I must say that their runners in the last week seem to have lost a leg ! If it's true it will rock the sport, has anyone else herd any similar whispers ?
What seems to me to be the differnece Nsw suspends the trainers and names them after the A sample returns positive Victoria and Qld dont just let them keep having runners.Dont think it would be hard to work out the names

[Mister JayKO]

Nothing will surprise me having said that the Greyhounds appear to be in the middle of their own little storm having just watched 4 Corners. The cynic in me says that the new racing minister will use the current storm clouds in all three codes to bring in a racing commission in Victoria some time this week.

[Messenger]

hi rick,i myself being involved in the harness racing industry,through owners,trainers,farriers,horse chiropractors,vets ,feed suppliers and even the visiting harness goods salesman the information that we gather is staggering....twelve months ago we were told to watch certain trainers and their "champs"....the cramp saga,we new about months ago....we just said they will GO,and they have...there are big names out there that have rode the wave of success through the use of dope at the expense of the owner trainers and the not so big time profession trainers,i myself,and few other concerned owner trainers and those people that have an interest in harness racing, really do hope that the authorities keep up the pressure on the cheats that they know about but can`t take the appropiate action until they have a solid case..... i have a lot more that i could say but i don`t want carhill stepping in....

You have to be fair Allan. We are lucky to have this forum to discuss the industry that we love. To prevent it from being a potentially malicious tool we are asked to use our real names. This being so means that not only the administrators of this site but also individuals could be at risk of legal action. Teecee is our most dedicated moderator and I suspect that without Tony Cahill giving of his time the administrators of this site could be forced to shut it down. TC is often protecting us from our own impulsiveness.

It is clearly not an easy job and I myself have had a ban hanging over my head at least once. I was upset about this but came to understand it. So try getting TC's name right and show him some respect because he is pretty much providing this forum for you.

Overall we all get on pretty dam well and problems can always be sorted out or seen for the mole-hills they really are, so everybody let's enjoy the opportunity to chew the fat with like-minded people. There will always be the odd personality clash but do not let it ruin all the good stuff

TC being TC this will probably be moved to another thread :D

[Richard prior]

Well Said Kev!!!!

[Danno]

I would hate to see this discussion derailed. the cobalt issue is massive and if anyone thinks the Authorities have got to the bottom of it by now they are kidding themselves.. there is a school of thought that if everyone who has had detected levels above the VERY,VERY LENIENT thresholds currently in place was exposed and DQ'd a very large slice of our "professional" and "successful" trainers would be driving taxis for a living.Our sport needs more than a clean up....it needs a bit of a clean out too...the time for sweeping crap under the carpet has ended.

[Messenger]

I don't see where the discussion is being derailed Dan, I do not believe there would be a more concentrated topic of 47 pages on this forum
The worry might be if the powers that be allow the issue to be derailed - is that what you mean?

[Danno]

I don't see where the discussion is being derailed Dan, I do not believe there would be a more concentrated topic of 47 pages on this forum
The worry might be if the powers that be allow the issue to be derailed - is that what you mean?

Correct, my fault, terminology I used was misleading ie;"discussion" my apologies Kev, I was at the end of a rather big day and half asleep ( I can always find an excuse)

cheers,
Dan

[Messenger]

No apology required Dan - some of us cannot remember when we were last tired from a big day of work

[Danno]

Not sure if anyone has seen this article...it makes very interesting reading.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/trainers-turn-on-association-over-cobalt-stance-20150215-13fca2.html

[Messenger]

I was happy to see that one Dan as it suggests the rank and file want the game cleaned up

[Race For Fun]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Another-bad-news-blow-for-Australian-racing

[arlington]

and interesting comments from David Hayes and Robbie Lang.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/trainers-still-in-dark-on-cobalt/story-fnibcgg5-1227216376218

[Messenger]

and interesting comments from David Hayes and Robbie Lang.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/trainers-still-in-dark-on-cobalt/story-fnibcgg5-1227216376218

Interesting from those 2 Wayne but I hate the opening position of journo Matt Stewart - it reminded me a little of Robbo's pathetic bias/covering for Hird in the Essendon scandal

[Messenger]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Another-bad-news-blow-for-Australian-racing

This is another reason why the 200 is too generous - here we have the Herald Sun saying 'stewards say the cobalt positives in those cases were not dramatically above the permitted levels' when referring to the gallops three. How about they state how many times above normal levels they are

[Toohard]

Pretty sensational opening statement in that article. Then read on...backed up with what? 'Suspected' again and the same old stuff the Age did. Cut and paste. 'Journalism'?

In other article a great idea!! Take the thoroughbreds with high cobalt readings. Sure there's room at Werribee quarantine this time of year. Give them what trainers said they were given feed, supplements, etc for couple weeks. Also give them same exercise. Then pick a 'raceday'. Don't give them anything that day coz that's illegal. Then bowl them round track under race conditions. A trial will do. Then swab them and test results.

If no high cobalt readings, how come there were before?

The Cobalt fairy?

How come only 5 of those trainers horses had high readings? Out of 100's only 5?

[barney]

Wade Birch integrity officer of the racing has confirmed 3 harness and 2 gallop trainers horses have returned positives but still no names as they are sending the samples to Sydney for analiysis.Surely this is doing more harm than good to both codes Seems like they are looking for a reason not to charge the trainers.In my mind a positive is a positive and they should be named to protect the reputation of innocent trainers who do the right thing.
I also point out he is the same person who was notified in October last year re the greyhound situation and did nothing.This info is available on www.letsgohorseracing.com.au website

[Richard prior]

Wade Birch integrity officer of the racing has confirmed 3 harness and 2 gallop trainers horses have returned positives but still no names as they are sending the samples to Sydney for analiysis.Surely this is doing more harm than good to both codes Seems like they are looking for a reason not to charge the trainers.In my mind a positive is a positive and they should be named to protect the reputation of innocent trainers who do the right thing.
I also point out he is the same person who was notified in October last year re the greyhound situation and did nothing.This info is available on www.letsgohorseracing.com.au website
Honestly speaking, Hell there's a lot of people in the racing industry that impersonate Eunuchs, About time these people got off there big fat pay cheques and done something about this disgrace, Rant Over!!

[barney]

Wade Birch has been stood down from his position of integrity officer

[Richard prior]

Very Interesting, Sounds like the Chickens have come home to roost!!

[Pena]

I suggest it has got more to do with the greyhounds saga than the Cobalt one.

[brent_L]

I suggest it has got more to do with the greyhounds saga than the Cobalt one.
All to do with the greys

[barney]

They have named a north Qld gallops trainer for using cobalt chloride no presumption of innocence there.

[Pena]

Does anyone know what happened to the Tyndall and Chapple Appeals last week.
I am guessing by the fact that the HRNSW stewards PR machine has not released a media release either they did not get the result they wanted or there has been an adjournment. Suspension or confirmation of suspension media release in 24 hours. Otherwise NOTHING!!!!!

[Boydy]

I actually attended the Industrial Relations Court last week and heard some of these hearings.

Dean Chapple got an adjournment to obtain further evidence so it is not going to occur for at least a month, it was all over fairly swiftly.

I saw some of the Noel Tyndall appeal and I must say after an hour and a half had to leave. The appeal was all about legal technicalities and I got the impression was going to take a long time to resolve. I think the fact that the Day/McDowell appeal in the court system is still ongoing will make it very difficult to resolve some of the issues that were raised.

[Pena]

Thanks for the update Boydy but I see the HRNSW site is yet to update the Appeals Pending or give a media release with regards these 2 cases. Although the Detention Barn got its own media release. I am amazed how many people accept this rubbish. Or maybe its only the vocal minority.

[Pena]

I take my hat off to ray Murrihy he knows how to fight the good fight and does not make it a personal crusade.
Darren Smith deserves everything he gets for injecting his horses with a substance provided from a disqualified person but Murrihy is smart enough to know he can still give him a massive penalty without having to go down the long road of court litigation debating the specifics of cobalt levels etc. This issue certainly is not dead in harness racing and I am tipping it will go on for a number of years.

http://www.racingnsw.com.au/default.aspx?s=article-display&id=17331

[barney]

Darren smith found guilty 62 charges.
With the subject of court litagation didnt the connections of Smokin up use that .

[aussiebreno]

Darren smith found guilty 62 charges.
With the subject of court litagation didnt the connections of Smokin up use that .
High as 6000 some of them. And Ray Thomas (don't really know much about him but some regard him as Sydney's leading racing expert) on Big Sports Breakfast this morning describes Darren's fate as ''bad luck' lol.

[Toohard]

High as 6000 some of them. And Ray Thomas (don't really know much about him but some regard him as Sydney's leading racing expert) on Big Sports Breakfast this morning describes Darren's fate as ''bad luck' lol.

6000!!! Administered with a Bob Cat !!

[cyclone george]

I believe Victorian trainer has a positive to cobalt ,trainer stood down ,horse has been scratched tonight and all engagements this week have been scratched

[p plater]

I can't understand why HRV don't make it known.

[Adaptor]

Looks like all horses trained by Parwon ( near Melton) trainer Craig Demmler have been scratched from Melton, Maryborough and Kilmore.

Demmler suspended pending cobalt inquiry

http://www.harnesslink.com/International/JOHN-im-already-doing-demmler

[teecee]

http://www.hrnz.co.nz/news-and-events/latest-news/2919-demmler-stood-down

[Njcstables]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=26050

[Mister JayKO]

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/melbourne-veterinary-surgeon-admits-supplying-cobalt-chloride-to-horse-trainers-20150319-1m3355.html

Well, well the smoking gun appears and looks as if it was found out by complete accident, good old Australia Post.

This should not surprise anyone as to the extent that this stuff was being used.

[Messenger]

I know there are rotten apples in every profession but how can you be a vet or a trainer and not be a true horse-lover.
I hope that reference to 'rogue' vet was not intimating that a vet could have been doping without the trainer's knowledge/approval.

[Amlin]

I know there are rotten apples in every profession but how can you be a vet or a trainer and not be a true horse-lover.
I hope that reference to 'rogue' vet was not intimating that a vet could have been doping without the trainer's knowledge/approval.

Answer: money