cobalt

[jackthepunter]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=26083

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=26084

[Messenger]

To summarize
Neil Day got 4yrs
Dean McDowell got 4½yrs
and both face a fresh charge for not attending

[barney]

To summarize
Neil Day got 4yrs
Dean McDowell got 4½yrs
and both face a fresh charge for not attending

There is really no penalty in the Dean Mcdowell situation as his father has taken over training the team same horses still racing

[Messenger]

There is nothing you can do about that Brian. Dean would not be allowed to set foot on the premises, he has been punished and you would think that his family and others would have to have learnt what is expected in future.

[barney]

There is nothing you can do about that Brian. Dean would not be allowed to set foot on the premises, he has been punished and you would think that his family and others would have to have learnt what is expected in future.

Yes realise that and know Col he had a cc reading on one of his horses of 200 so so close to being over wasnt funny.I know now it will be tough on the family but horses they have are all owned by Cols company Allied express so hard to believe they wouldnt have known what was going on as Col drove them as well in most cases.
Both the horses are in on Tuesday at Menangle.

[Messenger]

Don't worry, I hear what you are saying Brian. Reading the linked article, it would seem there is a chance that the limit could go down to 100. Embarrassing to think that Australian horses were left out of the testing as they fear too many of ours would be tainted. The heading of the article in my copy of The Age is actually 'Australia gets Cobalt pass' which is very ambiguous and could be read as a good thing

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/australian-horses-excluded-from-cobalt-tests-20150322-1m4y3z.html

[Danno]

It's relieving to know after reading that link Kevin that at least Australian Horse sports are seen as being at the "leading edge" to the point we cannot be included in a study on illegal drugs so as not to misrepresent the conclusions that study might find........and there are STILL some people trying to pretend this evil substance is "nothing":rolleyes:

[Messenger]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Micallef-disqualified-for-30-months

The horse Glenthorne subsequently lost his win in the final too as he has now been disqualified in the heat thanks to the positive (and therefore did not belong in the final)

What about the track record he set later that month? Should that be erased from the books?

[Richard prior]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Micallef-disqualified-for-30-months

The horse Glenthorne subsequently lost his win in the final too as he has now been disqualified in the heat thanks to the positive (and therefore did not belong in the final)

What about the track record he set later that month? Should that be erased from the books?
Absolutley!!!

[Danno]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Micallef-disqualified-for-30-months

The horse Glenthorne subsequently lost his win in the final too as he has now been disqualified in the heat thanks to the positive (and therefore did not belong in the final)

What about the track record he set later that month? Should that be erased from the books?

Very good question Kev, whilst at first glance one would say yes, if the horse didn't have a positive then that leaves things more open, Remember Lance!!

[Richard prior]

True Dan, If they suspected that the horse was on something, It's a wonder that they didn't keep testing it in its following runs and although it did come up with a couple of positives previously, You just can't assume that it was still on the same substance if it hasn't been tested.

[Pena]

Great to see HRNSW now have their new pin up prohibited substance Argon and Xenon.
What's next Fairy Dust and Holy water.
When I see Peter Moody still spending millions of dollars at the yearling sales I can't but think they know more than the general public does.

[aussiebreno]

Great to see HRNSW now have their new pin up prohibited substance Argon and Xenon.
What's next Fairy Dust and Holy water.
When I see Peter Moody still spending millions of dollars at the yearling sales I can't but think they know more than the general public does.
A new pin up prohibited substance like Capsaican and Cobalt?

Oh dear how dare HRNSW target this stuff. Better they tie their hands behind their back and let the cheats go open slather...

[Messenger]

Great to see HRNSW now have their new pin up prohibited substance Argon and Xenon.
What's next Fairy Dust and Holy water.
When I see Peter Moody still spending millions of dollars at the yearling sales I can't but think they know more than the general public does.
One alternative would have been for PM to direct his clients with money to spend to other trainers thus harming his business before the cobalt findings are even completed

[Adaptor]

Five Times The Threshold...
At the Meadowlands
http://www.harnesslink.com/International/Jeff-Gural-is-taking-a-stand-on-integrity

Are Victorian harness racing stewards testing for cobalt?

[Messenger]

Five Times The Threshold...
At the Meadowlands
http://www.harnesslink.com/International/Jeff-Gural-is-taking-a-stand-on-integrity

Are Victorian harness racing stewards testing for cobalt?

I wish they had stated what the cobalt reading was Noel. I am not sure whether the horse had five times the threshold 5x200 or maybe 5x100 or Five times the normal level typically found in a horses system which would have to be something like 5x5

I think Craig Demmler would say they test for cobalt in Vic

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Craig-Demmler-appeal-declined

[Pena]

A new pin up prohibited substance like Capsaican and Cobalt?

Oh dear how dare HRNSW target this stuff. Better they tie their hands behind their back and let the cheats go open slather...

Please Brenno. If you don't realise this is all about ego then you are in denial.
Is there actually any evidence that Cobalt is an should be a Class 1 at 200.
The answer is categorically no and I hope the McDowell/Day case wins and shows what a joke this whole thing is.

[Pena]

The whole Gural situation is a complete farce. To start with privately owned track that did not want the horse to be allowed to race. Note he owns the track and oversees all the testing. Does anybody see a conflict of interest there. HELLO!! This is the same bloke that barred George Brennan from the track because he would not race exclusively there. Taking any notice of the farce that is the Meadowlands and other Gural owned tracks is just laughable.

[Richard prior]

Hey Jack, I think it was Brian Seers that was barred for a time and I believe that George Brennan was cleared to drive at Gural's tracks once they had a sit down and chat.

[Messenger]

Please Brenno. If you don't realise this is all about ego then you are in denial.
Is there actually any evidence that Cobalt is an should be a Class 1 at 200.
The answer is categorically no and I hope the McDowell/Day case wins and shows what a joke this whole thing is.

Please Jack. What are your thoughts on this previously linked article? Do you think the whole racing world is wrong?

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/australian-horses-excluded-from-cobalt-tests-20150322-1m4y3z.html

[Pena]

Richard sorry that I make the mistake between Brennan and Seers but again the fact he was barred in the first place was an absolute joke.
Kevin as for this article considering that in the US there is speculation that Hall of Fame trainer Bob Baffert had horses die for large does of Cobalt I find it funny that California was allowed to participate.
The facts are these stories are straight from the officialdom that are trying to enforce the rules.
The facts are HRNSW has convicted basically nobodies. Not the leading trainers that appear to turn horses form around overnight. Although some of them have had a bit of a drop of in these regards lately.
The thing is most of the trainers with the exception of McDowell have not had the funds to fight.
The difference is Moody, Kavanaghs and O'Brien do.

[Messenger]

Jack, the fact that officialdom are trying to enforce the rules and making it public is fine by me - esp if we are talking about a substance that is rumoured to have caused horses to die.
Maybe some trainers have not got so much money that they can afford to pursue loopholes. At this point, McDowell, Moody, Kavanagh and O'Brien are still in trouble

[p plater]

I hear McDowell is north of $300,000 and counting

[Pena]

It's funny you say that Kevin I just watched the news and the ATC and Longines had Peter Moody front and centre promoting their new sectional time equipment hardly seemed like a dead walking. At the very least they won't treat them like criminals like HRNSW have. I think McDowells and Days at minimum initially got some very bad advice. But I hear they are challenging the clAssification of cobalt. Read the NSW penalty guidelines and if it's a Class 1 under the definition I will give it away.

[Chariots]

I am not sure what your point is Jack.

Are you advocating that Cobalt is a nothing drug and Authorities should not be pursuing those that return readings over 200?

Your comments regarding Gural are also interesting. At least he has the guts to take on those that like to operate outside of the rules.

Perhaps we should all give up and let trainers do whatever they want.

[Chariots]

One of the most respected and proactive jurisdictions from an integrity perspective in the world is The Hong Kong Jockey Club and they have set their level at 100.

[Pena]

You obviously miss the point with Gural he tries to bar you and gets overruled, controls the sample who knows what could happen.
Trying to compare Hong Kong with its all horses on course, of course all trainers invited and treated by Jockey Club vets is like trying to compare an apple with a watermelon.

[Messenger]

Jack, I think the point was that HK have the Cobalt level at 100 and the other question was whether you think Cobalt is a nothing drug

[Danno]

I think the point Jack is trying to make is that he likes/dislikes some people/cheats and some drugs/substances more than he dislikes/likes other cheats/people and substances/drugs........am I getting warm Jack??

[allanjg]

i would say that you are getting very warm dan.

[Pena]

Totally wrong Dan and Allan. I have a bit more intellect and don't just think everyone is cheating that people like yourself normally do. My point is there are a number trainers that have almost unbelievable results and despite stewards supposedly being the world leaders in integrity have still only caught minnows using this supposed wonder drug. I ask you this there have been a number of trials held with regard levels and retention periods but has the effect of the EPO like substance ever been tested.... No.
Even though HRNSW guidelines would not categorise Cobalt as a Class 1 HRNSW just make up their own guidelines and here we go again with Argon and Xenon.

[Race For Fun]

Cobalt is a heavy metal. So the simple fact that some horses are returning very high levels (to put it mildly) should be a concern to anyone who has the horses welfare as a priority.

I don't agree with Jack's statement that the NSW stewards haven't done adequate tests on cobalt (if I have miss quoted you Jack I apologise). I am happy with the way the NSW stewards are working on the problem. Having said that I fully agree with Jack's comment regarding the improvement of some horses.

[Messenger]

So Jack, I gather the stables you are suspicious of are not 'minnows' so I am thinking we are talking larger professional stables - maybe they are just better conditioners or if your suspicions are correct then maybe they are smart enough/well resourced enough to do their own testing and make sure their horses do not exceed any limits. It could also be that they are one drug ahead of the pack - a sad thought but a possibility that the stewards would have considered however unlikely some may hope that is. One thing for sure is that it does the industry no good having people speculate that this is so without a shred of evidence. We have to have a well resourced integrity panel that we have faith in - something you do not seem to have Jack.
There is a fair chance that cobalt could become history as who would be stupid enough to be experimenting with it in the current climate

[Race For Fun]

Yes Reid Sanders has already said in an interview that they think that they are probably a step behind the cheats.

[allanjg]

to toni and kevin,and to annyone else that loves the harness racing industry as much as i do, should only want to see it ran as straight as it possibly can be...i had an hour or so to-day to do some web surfing,i looked at cycling,athletics,mounting climbing, gymnastics and of course racing,gallops, harness and hounds...i came to one conclusion,[although i`ve known it since i was a thirteen year old resetting the lure at the local grey hound meeting] that money dictates it all...the drugs "performance inhancers' call them what you want,are the first priority to some trainers of all codes...the list of "inhancers" is staggering....out there,there are hundreds of poorly paid industrial chemists who can make some side money to come up with the "good stuff", and believe it is happening...so if the integrity people of our sport put all their effort and expense into trying to make it a level playing field for all of us owners ,trainers,punters and just fans,well then lets get behind them and let them know that there are people around that are on their side...

[Danno]

Totally wrong Dan and Allan. I have a bit more intellect and don't just think everyone is cheating that people like yourself normally do. My point is there are a number trainers that have almost unbelievable results and despite stewards supposedly being the world leaders in integrity have still only caught minnows using this supposed wonder drug. I ask you this there have been a number of trials held with regard levels and retention periods but has the effect of the EPO like substance ever been tested.... No.
Even though HRNSW guidelines would not categorise Cobalt as a Class 1 HRNSW just make up their own guidelines and here we go again with Argon and Xenon.

I think the point Jack is trying to make is that he likes/dislikes some people/cheats and some drugs/substances more than he dislikes/likes other cheats/people and substances/drugs........am I getting warm Jack??

Absolutely nothing you stated has changed my mind Jack.....Cobalt is but one substance in a long and ever growing list of what the cheats/chemists/ keep coming up with, as regards to why it is a Class 1 drug, geez, if you reckon it's not then what in the hell is??

I still have no idea why you keep trying to argue that Cobalt is over rated class wise, one things for sure Jack, it's not as "innocent" as something as despicable as say caffiene!

[Race For Fun]

I think that this should be in this thread. If not please move.


Harness Racing NSW Fail in Challenge to Defamation Claims

Trainers Dean McDowell and Neil Day are suing Harness Racing NSW in the Supreme Court of NSW for defamation in relation to media releases published in April and May 2014. Mr McDowell & Mr Day claim that the media releases suggested that as trainers (a) they are in danger to the integrity of the harness racing industry, (b) they achieved victory for a horse by administering a substance above the legal limit and (c) they are cheats in harness racing.

On Friday 10 April 2015, Harness Racing NSW tried in three ways to challenge the trainers case about the meaning of the press releases, all of which failed. Justice Lucy McCallum found the case as pleaded was suitable to go to trial and ordered Harness Racing NSW pay the trainers legal costs.

http://us10.campaign-archive1.com/?u=bc761c1db34550c33490fb924&id=e0120bb9f1&e=7520800204

[Adaptor]

From the stewards report at Maryborough yesterday:

HRV Stewards conducted surveillance activities today, including upon the Brian Kiesey trained Nicmac Bromac, scheduled to compete in this event, prior to its arrival on course. Subsequently Nicmac Bromac was scratched from the event by order of Stewards at 4.05 pm in accordance with Australian Rule of Harness Racing 193(5) regarding an alleged administration of a medication on raceday. Blood and urine swab samples collected from Nicmac Bromac will be analysed and the HRV Stewards will continue to investigate the matter.

[Messenger]

From the stewards report at Maryborough yesterday:

HRV Stewards conducted surveillance activities today, including upon the Brian Kiesey trained Nicmac Bromac, scheduled to compete in this event, prior to its arrival on course. Subsequently Nicmac Bromac was scratched from the event by order of Stewards at 4.05 pm in accordance with Australian Rule of Harness Racing 193(5) regarding an alleged administration of a medication on raceday. Blood and urine swab samples collected from Nicmac Bromac will be analysed and the HRV Stewards will continue to investigate the matter.
cue Pink Panther theme

[Richard prior]

Sounds a bit like the guy that used to pull up just outside Kilmore.

[Messenger]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/leading-trainer-mark-kavanagh-lashes-out-over-cobalt-investigation/story-fnibcaa0-1227320228038

“We’ve been named, blamed and shamed and been punished for something nobody has done’’ Kavanagh told RSN.

Kavanagh, one of four Victorian stables being investigated for horses returning illegal levels of cobalt, insisted neither he nor the other trainers had cheated.

He said he had lost horses and had not purchased any at recent yearling sales amid the uncertainty of the future and the drop off of clients.

Peter Moody has revealed he has also lost clients.

Kavanagh said the ongoing investigation and stigma had “affected me personally and my business dramatically”.

“Nobody’s done anything wrong. It’s in feed supplements and it’s turned up in swabs and it’s just unfortunate,’’ he said.

...........................................

Kavanagh said there was evidence that multiple use of legal supplements could push a horse above the 200 microgram/litre of urine threshold

...........................................

Jamie Lovett, breeder and part-owner of Melbourne Cup winner Protectionist, appeared unconvinced by Kavanagh’s defence, tweeting “Vitamins … really…’’

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/leading-trainer-mark-kavanagh-lashes-out-over-cobalt-investigation/story-fnibcaa0-1227320228038

Edit - I thought there was evidence that you could not get a horse over 35 on legal supplements or was that just feed? I wonder whether he would go so far as to say that 'multiple use of legal supplements' was following administration instructions

[apexguy]

The Appeal panel of Racing NEW rejected the appeal of Darren Smith and upheld his 15 years disqualification. Article from the SMH makes interesting reading

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-findings-clearly-show-just-how-important-this-case-is-20150424-1msd8g.html

[jackthepunter]

The longer this goes on the more laughable it gets, surely after all the work Hrnsw has done to prove how it works theirs no way out.

[allanjg]

The longer this goes on the more laughable it gets, surely after all the work Hrnsw has done to prove how it works theirs no way out.

i would love to read the 38 page document released by rnsw concerning the smith case..

[Njcstables]

i would love to read the 38 page document released by rnsw concerning the smith case..

http://www.racingnsw.com.au/site/_content/document/00001318-source.pdf

There you go Allan.

[kung fu man]

http://www.harnesslink.com/International/ARCI-Press-Release--Sports--Horse-Racing----Cobalt-Policy-Adopted-by-Regulators

[Messenger]

Very interesting Warren, I wonder whether ppb is the same as microgram/L for even though they are not talking full disqualification of trainers at 50ppb, if those measurements equate, we are talking about a quarter of the level we have set.

[teecee]

Very interesting Warren, I wonder whether ppb is the same as microgram/L for even though they are not talking full disqualification of trainers at 50ppb, if those measurements equate, we are talking about a quarter of the level we have set.


https://www.google.co.nz/?gws_rd=ssl#q=parts+per+billion+definition

[allanjg]

https://www.google.co.nz/?gws_rd=ssl#q=parts+per+billion+definition



200 mililitres is equal to 200.228 ppm..... i think.

[Messenger]

https://www.google.co.nz/?gws_rd=ssl#q=parts+per+billion+definition
Thanks for doing what I should have done myself TC
so The Association of Racing Commissioners International are sanctioning trainers whose horses return a reading which is a mere ¼ of the Australian level and not letting the horses race until it returns to level 1/8 the 200 we allow
If the gallops guys get off on top of the AFL/Essendon drug botch up - Australia will be seen as the Drugs sporting capital of the world

[arlington]

Thanks for doing what I should have done myself TC
so The Association of Racing Commissioners International are sanctioning trainers whose horses return a reading which is a mere ¼ of the Australian level and not letting the horses race until it returns to level 1/8 the 200 we allow
If the gallops guys get off on top of the AFL/Essendon drug botch up - Australia will be seen as the Drugs sporting capital of the world


Kev, the link in post #546 refers to blood. Not sure if/how it equates to urine. Although I do agree with your way of thinking.

[Messenger]

Good point Wayne, it would be interesting to know how the two relate

[Boydy]

To be honest I have removed myself from this conversation as I was so disgusted with an appeal I lived and breathed for a couple of months and as a educated person could not believe on the limited amount of testing done on this substance was sufficient for someone being driven out of the game for more than 2.5 years.

In terms of comparing the blood concentration to the urine concentration the highest level HRNSW's testing found from urine was 250ug/ml and the highest for plasma was 10ug/ml. So to my calculations the limit 50 parts per billion is more like a urine limit of 1250.

[Chariots]

Perhaps there has been no comment due to a lack of credibility with the most respected racing jurisdiction in the world having a level of 100.


Have you read the 38 page Darren Smith appeal findings and the scientific evidence tendered?


You are delusional if you think levels in excess of 200 can be reached by a normal feeding regime.

[Messenger]

I am surprised that my comments have not drawn any comments. The misinformation provided in this post by both Teecee and Messenger in this thread simply shows the ignorance with regards this subject. If any one does not believe the 10 reading in testing of plasma I have the paper developed by HRNSW and would be happy to share if you would like to message. Not withstanding that if you look at the penalty and compare with HRNSW does anyone not see a problem. Cobalt is not proven to be a blood doping agent, Class 1??? Even under HRNSW guidelines Cobalt is not a Class 1! What is the real agenda and can HRNSW afford the fallout!

I'm back! LOL don't get your knickers in a knot if your posts are not commented on within hours - We are not on call and nobody is that important. I am only ever voicing my opinion on here and no doubt I am sometimes wrong. As Wayne pointed out in, post 551, I had not picked up that the RCI were talking blood and I thought I acknowledged the mistake in the very next post.
Here is another opinion that is all my own - I have not got much sympathy for those who want to mix chemistry with horse racing, horse racing and some forms of science like nutrition - great but not chemistry.
I don't know if I am brave enough to ask you what you think HRNSW's agenda is

[allanjg]

I'm back! LOL don't get your knickers in a knot if your posts are not commented on within hours - We are not on call and nobody is that important. I am only ever voicing my opinion on here and no doubt I am sometimes wrong. As Wayne pointed out in, post 551, I had not picked up that the RCI were talking blood and I thought I acknowledged the mistake in the very next post.
Here is another opinion that is all my own - I have not got much sympathy for those who want to mix chemistry with horse racing, horse racing and some forms of science like nutrition - great but not chemistry.
I don't know if I am brave enough to ask you what you think HRNSW's agenda is


as just a layman on this blood plasma/urine testing topic,my way of thinking is this.....we take neddy and inject him with stuff,straight into the vein,we will call the amount 10,the stuff goes to work in his system and after a certain amount of time the residue of 10 reaches his bladder and in turn is passed in his urine,we test the urine and the reading is say 2,the legal limit is1 so ned tests positive....so we must ask ourselves,how much bloody stuff was ned given in the first place....please let me know if you think i am off the planet with this kind of reasoning.

[teecee]

[QUOTE=Boydy;42537]I am surprised that my comments have not drawn any comments. The misinformation provided in this post by both Teecee and Messenger in this thread simply shows the ignorance with regards this subject.


The posts supplied by myself and Kev are in no way a reflection of ignorance.
Firstly I supplied a link to the mathematical relationship of ppb (parts per billion) to micrograms / litre etc. This link and its information is factual information.
Secondly Kev simply asked a legitimate question.
To have either or both contributions replied in such manner is totally out of line for members of this forum. It shows a complete lack of respect for other members not to mention a lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
It is this type of material on the forum which we need not have. Accordingly the offensive post is deleted and the writer sanctioned. (on holiday).

[Messenger]

I happen to be reading the Herald Sun not The Age this morning. Interesting to note the diff - I cannot help but feel Matthew Stewart is on the side of the trainers (I guess he would be well acquainted with the accused)
I do believe that 'Kav claims put cobalt pressure back on RVL' reeks of desperation - just my opinion of course

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mark-kavanagh-claims-put-cobalt-pressure-back-on-racing-victoria/story-e6frf7jo-1227330740167

[Messenger]

The Age and The Herald Sun are clearly poles apart

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/what-about-the-horses-say-vets-in-cobalt-debate-20150504-ggtq7c.html

The above link is not quite as detailed as the one that appears in todays paper (I'm afraid I cannot cut and paste the newspaper replica only the digital edition equivalent)

A group of respected horse veterinarians from around Australia are dismayed at the direction the cobalt debate has taken.

They have contacted Fairfax Media to express their deep concerns over the misuse of cobalt and their fears of animal welfare. They contend that some sections of the racing media have allowed the Victorian trainers whose horses returned high cobalt readings to criticise Racing Victoria officials, even to the point of suggesting "entrapment".

The vets said: "What about the horse? Who is looking after the health and welfare of the horse?

"The real debate here is one of animal welfare and even perhaps animal cruelty."


..............................................

"The Victorian and Australian threshold of 200 micrograms/litre urine represents cobalt in the body at toxic levels, as the normal level of cobalt is less than 10 mcg/litre. Cobalt has been widely identified as a blood doping agent which is why it is banned in all sports, and also why it has come on to the radar of horseracing here and around the world," they said.

.................................................

"In racing we entrust animal welfare to the trainers and their veterinarians. However, watching over are the racing regulators who need to step in when the system is failing the horse.This welfare role of racing regulators is non-negotiable. It is as important a role as that of looking after the integrity of racing and creating a level playing field. For without the regulators enforcing animal welfare, there is a chance it might get lost in the mire of gambling and winning."

The vets also questioned the source of cobalt as they believed it was implausible that cobalt readings over the Australian threshold of 200 mcg/litre could be achieved through the proper use of normal cobalt-containing supplements.


http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/what-about-the-horses-say-vets-in-cobalt-debate-20150504-ggtq7c.html

[Messenger]

Reported in The Age that the Vic gallops inquiry into the 4 charges with positives will continue tomorrow 'in camera' and considering that none of them have yet been charged, I fear Racing is looking for a soft way out

[gutwagon]

Leading gallops trainers are never suspended. They always want to protect the image of the sport. I bet they get small fines or are let off and only new cobalt infringements will be suspended.

[Messenger]

The small article did say that some West Aussie got 18mths

[Njcstables]

Some interesting outcomes today!
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=26494
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=26493

[Messenger]

Summarizing:
Craig Demmler's suspension has be set aside and he can resume training/driving
Vince Costa has been disqualified for 18mths for Cobalt administration

[arlington]

Some interesting outcomes today!
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=26494
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=26493


HRV CEO John Anderson on radio RSN this morning.
I imagine there'll be a recording on the RSN website.

[Messenger]

A small report in The Age this morning states Kavanagh and O'Brien, who have the same vet, "have maintained the high cobalt readings for the positive swabs have been supplementation through drips"
Racing is clearly the game of chemists nowadays - how sad

http://theage.digitaleditions.com.au/Olive/ODE/ageweb/LandingPage/LandingPage.aspx?href=QUdFLzIwMTUvMDUvMTQ.&pageno=NDk.&entity=QXIwNDkwMw..&view=ZW50aXR5

[kung fu man]

What a load of crap this is just a slap on the wrist and dont do it again
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=26494

[Messenger]

Warren, I think the biggest problem is training partnerships (for want of a better description). Vince has been suspended so Joe takes up the mantle. Last season they won 15 Vic races between them, this season they have already won 14

[Messenger]

Day & McDowell both got 3+yrs

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Mr-Neil-Day-Mr-Dean-McDowell-Failing-to-Attend-Inquiries

[allanjg]

Day & McDowell both got 3+yrs

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Mr-Neil-Day-Mr-Dean-McDowell-Failing-to-Attend-Inquiries

that`s on top of what they are already serving kev.....appeals for sure.:rolleyes:

[Messenger]

NSW gallops trainer Sam Kavanagh has been stood down until he faces an inquiry next month over 8 cobalt and caffeine charges

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/sam-kavanagh-stood-down-and-to-face-cobalt-caffeine-and-treatment-charges-20150521-gh6kkv.html

[Messenger]

That first link is certainly interesting Wayne

[Messenger]

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/setback-for-victorian-trainers-on-cobalt-20150601-ghe5yi.html

Patrick Bartley keeping the pressure on the authorities over the Vic gallops trainers YET to be charged

[Messenger]

A link to the USTA site's story on Ontario bringing in a cobalt threshold

http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=64549&zoneid=63

(thanks Rich)

[barney]

Sam Kavanagh cobalt case started today Tuesday very interesting $1000 per injection vet denies supplying it yet a staff member admitted posting it going to be interesting to say the least.
Also another harness trainer in Nsw has been stood down according to harness.org

[barney]

Trainer stood down is Joshua Carroll

[Messenger]

Sam Kavanagh cobalt case started today Tuesday very interesting $1000 per injection vet denies supplying it yet a staff member admitted posting it going to be interesting to say the least.
Also another harness trainer in Nsw has been stood down according to harness.org

This is from The Age today

Flemington Equine part-owner Dr Tom Brennan denied sending a $1000 bottle of supplement containing a high concentration of cobalt to trainer Sam Kavanagh when he gave evidence at a Racing NSW inquiry on Tuesday.
Brennan is a vet who was also a part-owner of Kavanagh’s ill-fated stayer Midsummer Sun, who returned illegal levels of cobalt and caffeine following his Gosford Cup win in January.
Kavanagh, who has been stood down by Racing NSW stewards, claimed in earlier evidence that he paid Flemington Equine $1000 for a bottle labelled ‘‘Vitamin Complex’’. It was later found to have a high dosage of cobalt in it.
Brennan refuted the evidence, saying he had never seen the bottle.
When shown the bottle at the inquiry, Brennan said: ‘‘I’ve never seen that bottle, or any bottle like it before.’’
He was then told that Flemington Equine nutrition consultant Samantha Potter said that she had sent the ‘‘Vitamin Complex’’ bottle on the orders of Brennan. The postage records are missing.
Potter also had given evidence that she had seen Brennan draw up a drip from a similar bottle at Danny O’Brien’s stable in September or October. Brennan was taken aback at the evidence and immediately refuted it.


This is the best link I can find to the story but is not quite the same

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/midsummer-sun-owner-tom-brennan-denies-supplying-supplement-containing-cobalt-20150609-ghjti3.html

I hope that if one is found to be lying to an inquiry that they double your penalty

[aussiebreno]

Don't know the background behind it (maybe she is just protecting her own vets licence?) but good on Samantha Potter for testifying against her boss (assuming her testimony is true).

[barney]

have read and it is only hearsay but the vets in Sydney were blindsided by the bosses in Melbourne and had no idea what was going on.Also that Harness people were used to administer the vitamins?

[barney]

Charges now been laid against Kavanagh snr Obrien and l and S Hope All have been charges with cobalt related issues and also the vet Brennan..Moody still under investigation

[Messenger]

All the links to The Age's 2 page coverage of the issue today

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-inquiry-four-leading-trainers-and-vet-hit-with-49-cobalt-charges-20150611-ghleh8.html

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/vet-tom-brennan-hit-with-20-charges-relating-to-use-and-supply-of-cobalt-20150611-ghldk0.html

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-crisis-timeline-of-events-20150611-ghllfr.html

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-crisis-racings-blackest-day-20150611-ghldy2.html

[squaregaiter]

All the links to The Age's 2 page coverage of the issue today

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-inquiry-four-leading-trainers-and-vet-hit-with-49-cobalt-charges-20150611-ghleh8.html

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/vet-tom-brennan-hit-with-20-charges-relating-to-use-and-supply-of-cobalt-20150611-ghldk0.html

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-crisis-timeline-of-events-20150611-ghllfr.html

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-crisis-racings-blackest-day-20150611-ghldy2.html


Thanks Kevin good compilation of articles, many thanks

[barney]

Another positive this time Newcastle Joshua Carrol enquirry has been adjourned to a date to be fixed.

[Messenger]

This is now becoming MIND BOGGLING HUGE - ramifications for racing industry could be anything (if Aussie's were not addicted to the punt)

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/sam-kavanagh-admits-to-drenching-injection-treatment-for-midsummer-sun-20150618-ghrnpj.html

With Sam Kavanagh brought up in a gallops family, it is hard to believe that he just decided out of the blue to be a 'chemist'

[Messenger]

To be fair to the Kavanagh clan, it has been pointed out to me that perhaps Sam was just an easy mark for a chemist

[barney]

Not harness related but Lance Osullivan and Scott are the latest to have a positive to Cobalt in Nz (first)

[Messenger]

Rather strange how The Age has an article today that while mentioning the Racing NSW inquiry resumes on Monday precedes to rehash all the info I linked a week ago especially highlighting the link to harness racing - well that is how it seems to me anyway. All in all an article with NO news

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/embalming-fluid-used-on-horses-hearing-told-20150624-ghwgym.html

[barney]

Harness triner Trevor Lambourn has been found guilty of 2 charges regarding cobalt and disqualified for 3 years.

[Messenger]

Finally Moody joins the gang

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/peter-moody-charged-over-lidaris-positive-test-to-cobalt-20150709-gi97w3.html

I would have thought they would want all this cleared up before spring but not much chance when they will no doubt appeal any probable convictions

[Messenger]

Lead story on the ABC's 7.30 report tonight. Not good for the racing industry in general. One of the interviewed was racing writer Matt Stewart who said that it was all his international contacts are talking about and that this will go on for months as those charged will appeal to the nth degree

[Messenger]

You get the feeling that Moody may be starting to realize he is knee deep in manure

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/moody-should-remember-there-are-two-sides-to-every-story-20150719-gifpvx.html

and the pressure continues to mount

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/rspca-could-press-charges-in-cobalt-scandal-20150719-gifnwd.html

[Danno]

I continue to hope this cobalt saga will have positive consequences for racing in the longer term, but there seems to be a common denominator with many people who have fallen foul of the extremely forgiving levels permitted........"not my fault"


FFS if your horse has a level that is MANY times higher than what can naturally occur and over the extremely lenient levels acceptable......it IS YOUR FAULT.....hoof supplements indeed! must have been a massive problem!!!???

[Danno]

http://www.nbnnews.com.au/2015/07/22/newcastle-trainer-loses-appeal/

[Greg Hando]

When are people going to learn you will get caught clean them all out for good

[Messenger]

Greg, we are supposed to be 'just' but life penalties would surely seem more acceptable as the future cheats may not join our industry or go down that path.
Unfortunately wherever money is to be made, a small or not so small number of people will cheat - in every walk of life. Where there is no money to be made, such people will cheat by cutting corners, not doing a proper days work or help themselves to things they shouldn't etc etc
Even good people can end up compromised, they love the game so much that they tell themselves they will just do this one little thing this one time so that they can survive. They can even kid themselves that they are still horse lovers
The closest racing ever came to pure was its origins - where one owner raced another but even then there were no doubt bastards to be found.
A huge number of our participants have been found guilty of cheating and are yet still 'respected' in our industry.
I like idea of life penalties but they are highly unlikely to happen - maybe we can get away with 15 yrs for second offences
If you do not think about the good stories it can become depressing

[barney]

Where did my post re Darrel Graham go he has an inquiry into a positve cobalt next month.Is on harnesslink so no reason to be deleted.

[Messenger]

Not sure what happened there Brian

[barney]

This thread is going to get to 100.000 views shortly.I do think it is important to let people know whats going on and dont protect big names in the sport if they have a positive let people know as cobalt is dangerous in high doses in horses.Read today that it can cause the hoof disease laminitis which is what caused Black Cavairs first foal to be put down.By the way not suggesting the foal was subject to cobalt just pointing out how dangerous it is.

[Messenger]

From yesterday's Age

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/australias-standing-as-a-leading-racing-centre-is-tarnished-20150722-giiaqy.html

Change of mind and admission by vet Dr Tom Brennan

[Danno]

From yesterday's Age

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/australias-standing-as-a-leading-racing-centre-is-tarnished-20150722-giiaqy.html

Change of mind and admission by vet Dr Tom Brennan


There are some things in that article that read particularly ugly Kev. Good to see the authorities are meeting it all head on.

[Messenger]

It would seem that gallops Vic are not prepared to have their spring tainted by Cobalt accusations

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-probe-trainers-asked-to-show-cause-why-they-should-not-be-immediately-stood-down-20150724-gijz8o.html

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-probe-trainers-slam-cavalier-timing-of-showcause-notices-20150724-gik74z.html

[Adaptor]

A huge gap in penalties in Pennsylvania, compared with what is going on here in Australia.
Hall of Famer, Chuck Sylvester who trained among millionaires...Muscles Yankee and Luck Chucky light $ fine and a couple of weeks.

Harness Racing Update has reported that Hall of Fame trainer Chuck Sylvester has been hit with a Cobalt positive in Pennsylvania after a horse he trained tested for an excess level of the banned substance.
Sylvester has been handed a 15-day suspension and a $500 fine by the Pennsylvania Harness Commission.

[Chariots]

No mention of the level and I doubt that he will be allowed to start horses at the Meadowlands.

[Richard prior]

Chuck's been hit with a feather, No way Gural will put up with that business.

[Messenger]

Age report following today's gallops hearing (this will be in tomorrow's paper)

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/new-insights-after-a-day-fighting-over-cobalt-20150729-gin9cq.html

Pretty pathetic if the last paragraph is true and considered reason enough to allow them to continue training in the interim

"No one admitted or accepted responsibility for the Cobalt positives. While it is likely the stewards will allow these trainers to continue because of the number of staff they employ, there was no satisfactory explanation of the nine positives"


This take on things by Patrick Bartley again was in this morning's Age

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-cases-put-racing-industrys-image-in-the-spotlight-20150728-gim8gi.html

[AllAboutArt]

I know what is on the internet various sites as much as you guys

What i put on the other site was a pure fact undisputable that a horse from the Triton stable and also a galloper from the Moody stable have collasped and died at the races recently .I also said coincidental only time will tell i guess
What part of the is shit as you said none undisputable horses did collaspe and die

where is this evidence of this horse dying ??????????????????????????????????????

[barney]

Story in smh today re John Bulldog Nicholson and vets with underworld connections.
To answer allaboutart how far did you go back in this thread undeniable horse did collapse and die what eidence do you want press reports is all we go on.

[Messenger]

The story Barney refers to is this one

http://www.theage.com.au/national/vet-at-centre-of-doping-probes-has-underworld-links-20150729-gin7sk.html

This is now getting coverage on Pg 6&7 of the Age - no longer buried in the sport section

It has a strong harness slant and also mentions a new appointment by Vic racing minister to reform Victoria's integrity structure across all 3 codes

[AllAboutArt]

Sorry i missed the report

[Hermione]

Congratulations on reaching the magic 100,000 :)

[barney]

Congratulations on reaching the magic 100,000 :)

When i starrted thread thought it would have been deleted so to get to 100.000 was a surpise but wouold be happier if didnt have to post it and we just had a level playing field for all

[teecee]

Story in smh today re John Bulldog Nicholson and vets with underworld connections.
To answer allaboutart how far did you go back in this thread undeniable horse did collapse and die what eidence do you want press reports is all we go on.

You are reminded of the requirement to attach a link supporting any claims made in your posts. If you can't supply he link here supporting your claims then don't post it.
It is not the need for readers to go searching for the evidence of your claims.

Posts that make unsupported claims within the post will be deleted.

[barney]

You are reminded of the requirement to attach a link supporting any claims made in your posts. If you can't supply he link here supporting your claims then don't post it.
It is not the need for readers to go searching for the evidence of your claims.

Posts that make unsupported claims within the post will be deleted.
Well im sorry dont have the time to post links as such tell you where story is if you dont want to know whats going on well and good will not post again your call.Everything i have posted has been right.

[barney]

As a side note posted an article re a Qld trainer that had a positive and it was deleted although it was on harness link in news.

[Richard prior]

Hi Tony, I'm not taking sides but I'm afraid that Barney does have a point, It's a touchy subject but everything that he has put forward is correct.

[teecee]

This thread is no different to any other as far as the rules of the forum goes and all posters are equal under those rules.
As this thread is more controversial and of wider interest it is all the more important that you back up your claims and or views with a link to the article you are quoting from. This includes articles which may appear in other parts of the HARNESSLINK website. I and any other readers will not be expected to search for any articles you quote from across the www The (http://www.The) responsibility is with the poster.
Whether you are right or not is irrelevant as is whether you have the time or any other excuse.
If it's good enough for others to make time and follow the rules it's good enough for all or don't post. It's up to you.

[Messenger]

We have to be considerate men. It is Tony's job to moderate this board. He cannot allow anything defamatory on any thread. I doubt he has the time to check sources for us as well. It does not take long to find a link for anything you post
eg I just did a google search 'Moody horse dies'
here is a link
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/kiss-a-rose-collapses-dies-after-race-at-caulfield-20140201-31tr2.html
I did not find anything for Tritton (note double tt)

[Messenger]

Here is the link for the Darrel Graham positive

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Darrel-Graham

[Richard prior]

This thread is no different to any other as far as the rules of the forum goes and all posters are equal under those rules.
As this thread is more controversial and of wider interest it is all the more important that you back up your claims and or views with a link to the article you are quoting from. This includes articles which may appear in other parts of the HARNESSLINK website. I and any other readers will not be expected to search for any articles you quote from across the www The (http://www.The) responsibility is with the poster.
Whether you are right or not is irrelevant as is whether you have the time or any other excuse.
If it's good enough for others to make time and follow the rules it's good enough for all or don't post. It's up to you.
All good with me thanks Tony.

[AllAboutArt]

We have to be considerate men. It is Tony's job to moderate this board. He cannot allow anything defamatory on any thread. I doubt he has the time to check sources for us as well. It does not take long to find a link for anything you post
eg I just did a google search 'Moody horse dies'
here is a link
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/kiss-a-rose-collapses-dies-after-race-at-caulfield-20140201-31tr2.html
I did not find anything for Tritton (note double tt)
That's because the Tritton horse dying is not true

[Messenger]

That's because the Tritton horse dying is not true

I do not know if it is true, I only know that a google search did not find a reference.
Aside from that, I am not sure that it can be proven relevant to this cobalt thread anyway

[Mark Croatto]

That's because the Tritton horse dying is not true

What about Black Caprice on the 28 January, 2014, dropped dead in the preliminary!

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=PC280114

[kung fu man]

interesting maybe coincedenceSkip to:
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Last Updated: August 01, 2015
Weather: Gold Coast 13°C - 23°C . Sunny.
SPORT
Career best races linked to cobalt
BRAD DAVIDSON GOLD COAST BULLETIN AUGUST 01, 2015 12:00AM
BE THE FIRST TO RESPOND

THREE horses embroiled in Queensland’s cobalt scandal produced career-best performances when they tested positive to the banned drug with one horse improving 10 lengths on its previous start.

The Gold Coast Bulletin can reveal In The Sky Rocket (March 29, 2014), French Lesson (January 31, 2015) and Vimzig (May 16, 2015) all produced peak career ratings in the races where they returned positive samples to cobalt.

All three horses also firmed in betting in those particular races.

Fluctuations from one of “Australia’s major betting agencies”, provided by DynamicOdds.com, showed French Lesson ($8.50-$4) and In The Sky Rocket ($16-$8) both firmed significantly while Vimzig also shortened from $2.80-$2.50. French Lesson and Vimzig both won, while In The Sky Rocket ran second.

Cobalt is a heavy metal salt, which is present in all animals at very low trace levels but at high levels can assist in generating more red blood cells to carry oxygen through the body and therefore postpone the onset of fatigue.



Vandalised. Photo: Glenn Barnes
The other two thoroughbred horses to test positive to cobalt in Queensland, Vandalised (June 21, 2014) and Grey Countess (May 30, 2015) did not return a career peak rating in the races in question but the figure was a peak for that racing preparation for both horses.

Both Vandalised ($8-$7-$8) and Grey Countess ($5.5-$7.50) either remained steady or drifted in betting in the races in question and finished first and second respectively.

The range of improvement from the five horses starts before testing positive to cobalt ranged from one length to 10 lengths.

French Lesson.

The figures are based on The Rating Bureau’s weight-for-age performance ratings.

TRB’s Daniel O’Sullivan said In The Sky Rocket recorded a rating 10 lengths higher when testing positive to cobalt at Doomben on March 29 when compared to its most previous start at the Gold Coast on March 15.

“However, In The Sky Rocket’s rating on March 29 (85.6) was only marginally better than two runs prior at Eagle Farm (82.5) and the start prior to that at Doomben (81.2),” he said.

“The three runs since that run (where he tested positive to cobalt) have been almost five lengths, 11.5 lengths and two lengths inferior.”


Vimzig wins a race at Toowoomba on May 16. He produced a positive sample to cobalt after this race.
In The Sky Rocket’s trainer at the time, Len Treloar no longer holds a trainers’ licence in Queensland and could not be contacted yesterday.

Grey Countess returned a cobalt reading of 1300 micrograms per litre of urine (ug/L) at the Gold Coast on May 30, which is 6.5 times above the 200ug/L cobalt threshold in Australia.

The reading is the highest recorded in the five thoroughbred horses who have returned elevated cobalt readings in Queensland.

O’Sullivan said Grey Countess improved six lengths from her previous start and an average of five lengths from her two starts prior to testing positive to cobalt.

“Then her two subsequent runs (after the cobalt positive) were 2.5 lengths and five lengths inferior to that day so basically the day in question was a big spike in performance,” he said.

O’Sullivan said big spikes in ratings were not “totally uncommon but it’s certainly not the norm”.


In The Sky Rocket (black and red silks) wins in Brisbane.
“Horses can show sharp improvement out of the blue, especially if they’ve proven themselves at a certain level before,” he said.

“In Grey Countess’s case, she’d been to 95 in the past so it wasn’t the biggest surprise in the world to see her run 90.1.”

Grey Countess’s trainer Rochelle Smith put the form reversal on May 30 down to the horse being freshened up for that particular race.

“She won a trial before that start and we gave her a freshen up before that trial and she always races best fresh,” Smith said.

“I wouldn’t say that she has improved six lengths and ... two starts before that run she bucked out of the barriers at Goondiwindi.”

French Lesson only improved one-length from its 7.5 length win at Atherton the start prior but O’Sullivan said the horse’s rating when returning the cobalt positive was “7.3 lengths better than the average rating of his three runs prior to that Atherton victory”.

French Lesson’s trainer at the time, Glen Baker said the horse peaked at Doomben on January 31 because the gelding races “best fresh”.

Vimzig, who is also trained by Smith, improved two lengths from its previous start and Smith put the improvement down to natural progression as well as a weak field at Tooowoomba on May 16.

O’Sullivan said TRB’s weight-for-age ratings are determined through a complex system.

“It doesn’t mean just because a horse wins, they return a higher or peak rating and ratings are worked out via a sophisticated model that firstly determines race strength and then looks at weight carried and beaten margin,” he said.

Smith faced a stewards’ inquiry over the positive tests to Vimzig and Grey Countess on Thursday but the matter has been adjourned. French Lesson’s trainer Baker is still waiting on the outcome of his appeal over the length of his two-year ban, while Vandalised’s trainer Jamie McConachy has successfully gained a stay of proceedings until his appeal into an 18-month ban is heard.

Bolts from the blue
These stats show a comparison of horses’ runs before and after the race in which they returned positive cobalt readings. The offending race is marked in grey and underlined.

VANDALISED

FINISHED: 1st $8-$7-$8

Trainer: Jamie McConachy Record: 33s: 11w, 3p

Rockhampton: May 10, 2014 (Rocky Am. Cup 1600m) 84.5

Rockhampton: June 7, 2014 (Tatt’s Gold Cup 1600m) 87.3

Rockhampton: June 21, 2014 (Rocky Cup 1600m) 92

Doomben: July 12, 2015 (Listed Tatt’s Mile 1600m) 86.1

Rockhampton: October 24, 2015 (Open Hcp 1100m) 94.3

Career peak:

Sunshine Coast: January 17, 2015 (Bench 90 1600m) 95.5

Daniel O’Sullivan’s summary: Rating (92) in race in question was almost 2.5 lengths superior to previous start and was a peak for that preparation. It was almost two lengths off his career peak (95.5) though and he registered a 94.3 next campaign.

Independent handicapper’s rating: Two-length improvement on peak at the time. Has since returned to that level.

FRENCH LESSON

FINISHED: 1st $8.50-$4 

Trainer: Glen Baker Record: 20s: 8w, 6p

Townsville: June 17, 2014 (Class 6 1300m) 76.7

Atherton: November 22, 2014 (Class 6 1400m) 86.9

Doomben: January 31, 2015 (Bench 80 1350m) 89.5

Mackay: June 11, 2015 (Open handicap 1300m) 79.1

Career peak:

Doomben: January 31, 2015 (Benchmark 80 1350m) 89.5

Daniel O’Sullivan’s summary: Rating (89.5) in race in question was a new career peak and was a one-length improvement on his previous start, which was a 7.5 length win at Atherton. The new career peak was 7.3 lengths better than the average rating of his three runs prior to that Atherton victory.

Independent handicapper’s rating: Two-length spike on previous form. Failed in lone run since.

IN THE SKYROCKET

FINISHED: 2nd$16-$8 

Trainer: Len Treloar Record: 13s: 1w, 4p

Eagle Farm: March 1, 2014 (3yo open 1200m) 82.5

Gold Coast: March 15, 2014 (3yo open 1400m) 65.1

Doomben: March 29,2014 (3yo open 1200m) 85.6

Eagle Farm: April 19, 2014 (3yo open 1000m) 76.1

Sunshine Coast: May 18, 2014 (Class 2 1200m) 62.3

Career peak:

Doomben March 29, 2014 (3yo open 1200m) 85.6

Daniel O’Sullivan’s summary: Produced a career peak rating (85.6) in the race in question which was 10 length better than start prior. The rating was marginally better than a couple runs prior at Eagle Farm and Doomben. The three runs since his new career peak have been almost five lengths, 11.5 lengths and two lengths inferior.

Independent handicapper’s rating: Matched peak from March 1. Failed to hit peak in three subsequent runs.

GREY COUNTESS

Finished: 2nd $5.50- $7.50 

Trainer: Rochelle SmithRecord: 32s: 7w, 5p

Goondiwindi: March 22, 2015 (Open 1200m) 82.1

Toowoomba: May 2, 2015 (Benchmark 85 1200m) 77.8

Gold Coast: May 30, 2015 (Benchmark 85 1400m) 90.1

Ipswich: June 13, 2015 (Gai Waterhouse Classic 1350m) 85.3

Murwillumbah: June 21, 2015 (Benchmark 70 1530m) 78.7

Career peak:

Eagle Farm August 9, 2014 (1MW 1200m) 95

Daniel O’Sullivan’s summary: Rating (90.1) in race in question was a six lengths improvement on start prior and an average of five lengths improvement on two starts prior. Two subsequent runs were 2.5 lengths and 5.5 lengths inferior to that day.

* Note: Two rating points equal one length.

Independent handicapper’s rating: Four-length spike on best recent form but four lengths below career peak.

VIMZIG

Finished: 1ST$2.80-$2.50 


Trainer: Rochelle Smith Record: 10s: 2w, 2p

Sunshine Coast: April 18, 2015 (Class 2 1400m) 82.9

Beaudesert: May 8, 2015 (Class 1 1400m) 84.9

Toowoomba: May 16, 2015 (Class 1 1300m) 89.4

* No starts since returning cobalt positive

Career peak:

Toowoomba: May 16, 2015 (Class 1 1300m) 89.4

Daniel O’Sullivan’s summary: Rating (89.4) in race in question saw an improvement of two lengths on start prior and average improvement of almost three lengths from two starts prior. Recorded a new career peak rating when returning a cobalt positive at Toowoomba.
Independent handicapper’s rating: Matched peak from eight days prior. That had been a spike of three lengths on previous form.






THREE horses embroiled in Queensland’s cobalt scandal produced career-best performances when they tested positive to the banned drug





[barney]

What about Black Caprice on the 28 January, 2014, dropped dead in the preliminary!

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=PC280114
I never at any stage suggested this was cobalt related but was a fact horse did collapse and die also Moodys horse and others.Some people on here like to ignore the facts that the sport we all love is not as pure as we all would lie it to be and by not revealing the dark side is diesn.t exist.It does and we must not pretend it doesn't

[Mark Croatto]

I never at any stage suggested this was cobalt related but was a fact horse did collapse and die also Moodys horse and others.Some people on here like to ignore the facts that the sport we all love is not as pure as we all would lie it to be and by not revealing the dark side is diesn.t exist.It does and we must not pretend it doesn't

I agree Brian, no suggestion for the why the horse died; merely correcting the statement "That's because the Tritton horse dying is not true" which was made by AllAboutArt

Regards

[Messenger]

I never at any stage suggested this was cobalt related but was a fact horse did collapse and die also Moodys horse and others.Some people on here like to ignore the facts that the sport we all love is not as pure as we all would lie it to be and by not revealing the dark side is diesn.t exist.It does and we must not pretend it doesn't

All I was saying Brian is that this is the Cobalt thread so why did you bring that up especially when you are talking about having posted it on another site - lets keep things clear and simple.
There are people whose job it is to promote our industry and therefore it is understandable that they will only present positives, other than that I don't think anybody is ignoring or pretending that all racing does not have a dark side

[barney]

Kevin at the present time putting a positive spin on Harness is extremely hard consider for one minute the state of it in Australia.In Sa they cant race on the main track because of not paying the rent Qld we have only 2 tracks operating Redcliffe and Albion park.Victoria is dominated by a stable .Nsw seems to be not as bad but Trittons dominance at Newcastle makes that a non betting or tipping venue for me.
I will NOT be passing on the info i get from good sources on this site in the future.

[Messenger]

Sounds like you had a big night and woke up a bit cranky Brian

[barney]

Not at all Kevin if have to post a link to info i get which has always proven to be correct, i just wont bother posting no skin off my nose.I have been privy to a lot of stuff which has proven to be true which i havent posted as not known to general public at this time.As they say some are shubject to ongoing Enquiries.

[Messenger]

Look men I know heaps is wrong with our industry and I am often guilty of being far too negative - to the extent that I started a 'Positives Only' thread to try and compensate for my negativity.
I also know how forums can go off the rails and how the facilitators of the forum have to be careful.
I am not referring to you Brian but lets say we tried to get around the 'link' proof by having a Rumour thread - if even a couple of people abused it and made libellous posts then the forum may have to close like the one HRV used to host (we do use our own names too remember)

[barney]

Kevin if people name names without proof then they are liable. This forum should not have to wait for main stream media to let people know what is going on in the sport as you well know main stream media DOES NOT give harness any publicity.To obey Tcees criteria it has to be in a link which most has to come from the media.

[AllAboutArt]

What about Black Caprice on the 28 January, 2014, dropped dead in the preliminary!

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=PC280114
It was said to be recent not 2014 plus that horse bled out

[Messenger]

Kevin if people name names without proof then they are liable. This forum should not have to wait for main stream media to let people know what is going on in the sport as you well know main stream media DOES NOT give harness any publicity.To obey Tcees criteria it has to be in a link which most has to come from the media.

And with TeeCee seeming to be the only active moderator, if something inappropriate stays on our forum too long then there could be a backlash for this site's providers too and this forum could fold. While on the other hand, not naming names can tar the reputation of others or all, instead of just the perpetrators.
Maybe we have to be patient and wait for the official news as harnesslink news, stewards reports, etc must eventually document anything significant (ps Mainstream media do not mind giving us negative publicity sometimes)

[barney]

Adam the thread you read was written in 2014 check the date

[Messenger]

Patrick Bartley would make a good prosecutor or steward.
From today's Age

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/lawyers-cobalt-defence-misses-the-facts-20150731-giovrp.html

The 5 Vic gallops trainers with cobalt positives will know on Monday if they will be stood down

[Messenger]

"Racing Victoria stewards will not enforce stand down notices on the five leading trainers with cobalt positives, but the trainers will be asked to forfeit their winning percentages from Group and listed races until after their hearings"

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/peter-moody-mark-kavanagh-danny-obrien-lee-and-shannon-hope-not-stood-down-by-racing-victoria-20150803-giqf4h.html

[DRUIDRACING]

Has anyone done any research into the relevant trainers results following the positive swabs. It was said some suspect horses improved 3 to 4 lengths.

[Messenger]

Afraid I am only a Spring gallops follower Steve. I have not heard any reference to gallops horses showing lengths improvement. I reckon it would be harder to assess gallopers improvement empirically due to the greater variation in tracks and distances and non reliance on mile rates but experts would know.

I now see that the Cobalt trainers are only having their winnings % withheld from listed and group races.

[Messenger]

Harnesslink's Sam Kavanagh story has a harness connection

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/I-was-desperate-for-winners-Sam-Kavanagh

[hillbillydeluxe]

Harnesslink's Sam Kavanagh story has a harness connection

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/I-was-desperate-for-winners-Sam-Kavanagh
Along with Sam Kavanagh is the administer which is quoted in the news that Mitch Butterfield along with his supplier of Horse stock John Camilleri are of interest to Ray Murrihy in there investigations. It is only fair and relevant that it should catch up with them after all.
Hopefully they get long and lengthy and pricey disqualifications as they have leapt pass the suspension phase.

[thepacingman]

Another gallops hearing with strong harness racing connections.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/superracing/bjorn-baker-cleared-but-stablehand-glen-lobb-disqualified-for-role-in-possible-raceday-treatment/story-fndpsbf9-1227470041802

[Messenger]

It is becoming depressing. One cannot help but wonder whether half the industry is shady

[barney]

The first 3 cobalt charges in Qld likely to be thrown out today on a technicality.

[Njcstables]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/superracing/surprise-twist-likely-from-trainers-cobalt-appeals/story-fndpsbf9-1227471709538
There is a link to story barney.

[barney]

It means that the 3 will be able to and i expect to be given the right to train again.Another nail in the coffin to the sport i have loved for most of my life sadly im now over it completely

[Messenger]

I'm afraid that heads need to roll over this mistake - it is INEXCUSABLE. Does the Qld integrity department have no protocols in place - "Oh we need a second test, let's look up an old yellow pages and stick a pin in the laboratories page"

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Cobalt-convictions-quashed-in-Queensland

RQ acting chief executive Ian Hall said:

"it does affect a lot of the past work and reinforces the fact that everyone has to be diligent and dot every ‘i’ and cross every ‘t’ when prosecuting these cases."

Well who would have imagined that you have to dot every i and cross every t when you are prosecuting people Ian!

[Messenger]

I'm almost embarassed for Max Presnell if this featherweight piece is the best he can come up with nowadays

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/major-queries-hang-over-cobalts-properties-20150807-giub0k.html

[DRUIDRACING]

He is like most gallop writers or commentators who are a part of the propaganda campaign to deflect the seriousness of the illegal use of chemicals in that industry. Ray Thomas said one saturday morning basically its a nothing this cobalt. The failure of authorities to actually deal with the matters in hand one wonders what will be the penalties.........fine, slap on wrist maybe for the Melbourne trainers coming into there BIG time for them. All will be forgotten when they win the big races again therefore almost condoning the use of the chemicals. Its fortunate they weren"t in NSW as they would be stood down by now.

[Messenger]

We have far more than the writers to worry about however eg Australian Turf Club executive manager of racing

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/matt-rudolph-allegedly-knew-what-stewards-were-saying-about-cobalt-investigation-20150811-giwh0y.html

but at least Vic now has a cobalt testing lab

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/new-victorian-facility-bolsters-war-against-cobalt-20150810-givolm.html

[squaregaiter]

just trying to catch up on some reading after 5 weeks off and in this thread there is a common denominator and it seems it just dosnt just lie with the colbalt

[Messenger]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/HRNSW-Media-Release---Mr-Joshua-Carroll-Cobalt-Irregularity-Inquiry-concluded

7yrs disqualification for Cobalt

[jackthepunter]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/HRNSW-Media-Release---Mr-Joshua-Carroll-Cobalt-Irregularity-Inquiry-concluded

7yrs disqualification for Cobalt
I love hrnsw finally some stewards with some balls,this is the only way to get rid of the cheats, not these 6-12 months rubbish.

[barney]

I like the way they deal with quickly gives a person some confidence in how the sport is run in Nsw unlike Qld and Vic

[Messenger]

It is clear that we have to tackle the problem of vets and compounding chemists to have any chance of cleaning up the industry
From todays Age

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/startling-revelations-and-muddied-waters-have-become-the-norm-in-cobalt-cases-20150814-giz8wo.html

[Danno]

It is clear that we have to tackle the problem of vets and compounding chemists to have any chance of cleaning up the industry
From todays Age

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/startling-revelations-and-muddied-waters-have-become-the-norm-in-cobalt-cases-20150814-giz8wo.html


If we learn anything from history Kev, these are the precedents to "cleansing" whilst retaining reputation, have seen this on many occasions, would like to have a couple of K on this happening at anything better than odds on!

[Messenger]

Nothing new really, just Bartley keeping the pressure on

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-circus-is-entertaining-but-its-not-funny-for-racing-20150817-gj0pdm.html

unfortunately it contains the line

'unlicensed shadowy characters from harness racing'

[Messenger]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Darrell-Graham-meets-Peter-Moody

I can feel a little sympathy for trainers with a single positive test which may appear an anomaly in as far as there may have been a lapse in security or communication and someone other than the trainer has administered cobalt.
The presence of multi suspended offenders also at this gathering is NOT a good look (I am thinking if they were disqualified not suspended, others would not be allowed to meet with them?)
I still believe it is the Vets that we have to reel in - no doubt trainers could be misled by them. It would be a bit like your stockbroker recommending a stock and you trust his expert opinion and take his advice but the stock tanks

[Mr Anderson]

if found to be cheating by cobalt or any other way it should be life with no welcome back to the sport as they do now after a small suspension.
I can think of 3 top drivers in NSW who shouldnt be driving but they are and continue to snub their nose at the stewards.

[Messenger]

You are never going to get life Robert - you rarely see life for murder nowadays

[barney]

And this is the reason my life long love for the sport is no longer there.When you see people who who have done the wrong thing and been caught yet still pretend they are innocent.

I agree one strike in the drug using catagory your out for life.

[HISGEN65]

I agree one strike in the drug using catagory your out for life.

MR.X & MR.Y both get caught & charged with the same offense - MR.X is doing it tough & is in no financial position to fight it - MR.Y has loads of money & or people behind him to fight it & gets off on some crappy loophole...Mr.X cops it on the chin & has to live with the stigma for the rest of his life whilst MR.Y goes about his business & most still think he/she shat dont stink..that is just one of the many scenarios that makes the whole integrity business so difficult to get right

[Pena]

When I see Luda competing in a Group 1 on Breeders Crown day and starting $3.70 I find it hard to take the myth that cobalt makes horses into these super horses and secondly after a 2600 reading surely these poor horses would be wrecked forever. Or maybe there has never been enough testing to understand the short or long term consequences of cobalt. Seems a pretty good example for McDowell and co that this is quite simply a PR exercise for some administrators.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/doped-up-pacer-luda-had-stamina-to-burn-showing-that-cobalt-really-works/story-fnibcaa0-1227186448490

[Messenger]

When I see Luda competing in a Group 1 on Breeders Crown day and starting $3.70 I find it hard to take the myth that cobalt makes horses into these super horses and secondly after a 2600 reading surely these poor horses would be wrecked forever. Or maybe there has never been enough testing to understand the short or long term consequences of cobalt. Seems a pretty good example for McDowell and co that this is quite simply a PR exercise for some administrators.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/doped-up-pacer-luda-had-stamina-to-burn-showing-that-cobalt-really-works/story-fnibcaa0-1227186448490

I'm afraid I am not following your logic at all Jack but before I try harder I would ask if you ok trainers giving horses anything they like from the periodical table if there is little proof as to the consequences - don't limit yourself to proven equine dietary requirements, make up a recipe of whatever you like for their dessert

Luda is no longer positive to cobalt and so your point is?
Your statement that these horses would be wrecked forever (from soon after a positive?) and if not it must mean ? Scientific basis for these assumptions?

Let's say you want to question the consequences of cobalt
I want to question why trainers are giving horses elements they DO NOT NEED

[Pena]

I think it is relatively simple to work out where I am coming from Kevin but I will elaborate for you.
Firstly, the article suggests that this drugged to the eyeballs horse pulled out an amazing run just because of the substance it was given. When in fact the run was far less impressive than subsequent runs when it had no cobalt in its system.
Secondly surely if what authorities say about the toxicity of cobalt and its effect on animal welfare how is this poor horse still one of the best 4 yo mares in Australia especially when she has had one of the highest recorded reading of 2600. Quite simply no real research has been done on either the short or long term effects of cobalt. Infact harness racing authorities sanction the use of cobalt containing substance otherwise they would ban VAM and Hemoplex etc. etc.

[Chariots]

Given your theory Jack, how do you explain that the much lauded Hong Kong Jockey Club has invoked a level of just 100 micrograms a litre.

Is your interest in this issue prompted merely by concern or a closer association with a trainer that has returned a positive swab?

[Messenger]

I think it is relatively simple to work out where I am coming from Kevin but I will elaborate for you.
Firstly, the article suggests that this drugged to the eyeballs horse pulled out an amazing run just because of the substance it was given. When in fact the run was far less impressive than subsequent runs when it had no cobalt in its system.
Secondly surely if what authorities say about the toxicity of cobalt and its effect on animal welfare how is this poor horse still one of the best 4 yo mares in Australia especially when she has had one of the highest recorded reading of 2600. Quite simply no real research has been done on either the short or long term effects of cobalt. Infact harness racing authorities sanction the use of cobalt containing substance otherwise they would ban VAM and Hemoplex etc. etc.

Thanks for the explanation Jack as that is much clearer than this

When I see Luda competing in a Group 1 on Breeders Crown day and starting $3.70 I find it hard to take the myth that cobalt makes horses into these super horses

I do not follow HRNSW so I know little about Luda but I must say you are completely ignoring the horse welfare issue. Just because there would appear to be no short term effects on Luda does not prove much but maybe you are right that more research needs to be done OR is it a waste of money in that it is known that horses need minimal cobalt so stop giving them something they do not need which may or may not be harmful and may or may not be performance enhancing

[Pena]

As usually happens on this forum most people tow the everyone is a cheat and rub them out. No I am not affiliated with one of the stable but actually like to look at the facts and form my own opinion. When I look at the track record of the messiah ruling harness racing in NSW I seriously question the motives of the Cobalt War especially considering what I perceive is a total lack of testing and research. It appears to me the penalty is totally out of proportion with the crime especially as there is such a lack of research. Fill a horse up with pain killer and get 6 months but use the toxic super horse cobalt and get 3 years. Just doesn't make sense to me. Don't get me wrong I do not condone the use of drugs but if you can legally inject a horse with drug 24 hours before the race I do not get how it is any different to bite etc. I seriously question the motives!!!

[Chariots]

You seem transfixed on Reid Sanders on this Jack and are completely ignoring that other jurisdictions around the world have already outlawed Cobalt despite this do called lack of scientific evidence.

[Messenger]

As usually happens on this forum most people tow the everyone is a cheat and rub them out. No I am not affiliated with one of the stable but actually like to look at the facts and form my own opinion. When I look at the track record of the messiah ruling harness racing in NSW I seriously question the motives of the Cobalt War especially considering what I perceive is a total lack of testing and research. It appears to me the penalty is totally out of proportion with the crime especially as there is such a lack of research. Fill a horse up with pain killer and get 6 months but use the toxic super horse cobalt and get 3 years. Just doesn't make sense to me. Don't get me wrong I do not condone the use of drugs but if you can legally inject a horse with drug 24 hours before the race I do not get how it is any different to bite etc. I seriously question the motives!!!

I like to ignore the facts and form someone else's opinion - no seriously, come on Jack it sounds like you are virtually suggesting that if you can inject a horse legally 24hrs before a race then you should be able to put ANYTHING in the syringe?

[Messenger]

How The Age summarized the other day's findings

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-guilty-findings-no-help-for-victorian-trainers-20150901-gjcpgr.html

[Chariots]

Jack, still waiting for you to explain why other jurisdictions have also taken a stance against Cobalt when you apparently think they do not have the supporting evidence to do so.

Full credit to Reid Sanders for being proactive and taking the lead in Australia on this issue.

[gutwagon]

Thanks for the link Kevin , that was actually a decent article. Weather Cobalt is performance enhancing or not is irrelevant. It's a banned substance , Hrv and all racing bodies have the right to ban any substance they like. They don't have to prove its effects . We all agree to abide by their rules when we join the sport.
If Cobalt didn't improve performance people wouldn't be using it !

[Pena]

Kevin, you obviously totally miss the point I am trying to make with regards treatment of horses. The facts are one of HRNSW platforms for introducing a limit is animal welfare. The facts are, and HRNSW own research shows it that a horse treated with an approved supplement if tested close to treatment will get over 200 so the animal welfare line added to examples like Luda, the animal welfare angle is just a big furfee, used to justify ones argument.
Quite frankly I have no time for any of Patrick Bartley's articles. I personally do not think he even likes racing. To start with why would Racing NSW appoint a judge to the hearing. I will give you the tip, its because of the current Supreme Court case with McDowell and Day, not as he states the seriousness of the charges. Who would have thought that Racing NSW would want to make sure their decisions were legally binding.
Rick I am not sure how you maintain that performance is not relevant?? I suggest you read HRNSW penalty guidelines.
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=18370
Their penalty guidelines even state that it is relevant!!
I think it is important that the stewards understand their role. Their job is to enforce the rules as they stand. When stewards step outside and there have been plenty of cases in the past of stewards doing this, normally for the wrong reason but they are also responsible to enforce the rules for the perceived reason. If one innocent person is punished because of the lack of research and evidence I am sorry that is too much for me.
Notwithstanding the issue of improved performance etc. the penalty simply doesn't fit the crime. US trainer got a number of days, Kevin Moses pleaded not guilty - 12 months, Harness Racing in NSW, plead guilty and get 2.5 to 3 years, why the big difference?? If you read the penalty guidelines and tell me how Cobalt given as a vitamin supplement is a Class 1 then, ask yourself why??

[gutwagon]

That list is 3 years old Jack and it states potential to affect performance. Cobalt does have a potential to affect performance. They don't have to prove it. If you can't play by the rules get out of the game. Stewards have not stepped outside the rules in the Cobalt cases. They have set a limit and are enforcing it .
Why are you so keen to use Cobalt ?

[Messenger]

Kevin, you obviously totally miss the point I am trying to make with regards treatment of horses. The facts are one of HRNSW platforms for introducing a limit is animal welfare. The facts are, and HRNSW own research shows it that a horse treated with an approved supplement if tested close to treatment will get over 200 so the animal welfare line added to examples like Luda, the animal welfare angle is just a big furfee, used to justify ones argument.
Quite frankly I have no time for any of Patrick Bartley's articles. I personally do not think he even likes racing. To start with why would Racing NSW appoint a judge to the hearing. I will give you the tip, its because of the current Supreme Court case with McDowell and Day, not as he states the seriousness of the charges. Who would have thought that Racing NSW would want to make sure their decisions were legally binding.
Rick I am not sure how you maintain that performance is not relevant?? I suggest you read HRNSW penalty guidelines.
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=18370
Their penalty guidelines even state that it is relevant!!
I think it is important that the stewards understand their role. Their job is to enforce the rules as they stand. When stewards step outside and there have been plenty of cases in the past of stewards doing this, normally for the wrong reason but they are also responsible to enforce the rules for the perceived reason. If one innocent person is punished because of the lack of research and evidence I am sorry that is too much for me.
Notwithstanding the issue of improved performance etc. the penalty simply doesn't fit the crime. US trainer got a number of days, Kevin Moses pleaded not guilty - 12 months, Harness Racing in NSW, plead guilty and get 2.5 to 3 years, why the big difference?? If you read the penalty guidelines and tell me how Cobalt given as a vitamin supplement is a Class 1 then, ask yourself why??

Jack can you provide me with the link to where it says that you can get a cobalt reading of 200 using an approved supplement.

[Pena]

Kevin, this is the ridiculous thing about cobalt and its testing, HRNSW did testing at Pepper Tree Stud on brood mares over 12 months ago but have never formally released the results. I have seen the results through a friends ring so I would be more than happy to email them to you if you send me a message with your address. Rick I am sorry if you think I am for the use of cobalt. Surely however any decision that is made should be faced on facts. Any person I have ever known that has had anything to do with horses says the reduction of pain is the best way to make a horse go faster is to reduce pain. At present you could give a horse a registered painkiller and in NSW be classed as a Class 2 as opposed to give a Class 1 such as cobalt that is totally unproven and get 6 times the penalty, sorry but this does not make sense to me.

[Messenger]

I would then be summarizing them and posting it on here Jack so couldn't you just tell us what approved products they administered for the tests, whether it was administered in accordance with product instructions and what the results showed?

[strong persuader]

I would then be summarizing them and posting it on here Jack so couldn't you just tell us what approved products they administered for the tests, whether it was administered in accordance with product instructions and what the results showed?

The study involved administering a product known as ‘Hemo-15 (http://www.virbac.com.au/home/horse-owner/products/blood-building/hemo-15.html)’, supplied by Virbac, which is an injectable vitamin supplement that contained the highest level of Cobalt of any registered veterinary product in Australia (0.7 µg/L of Cobalt gluconate and 150 µg/L of vitamin B12).

In what Dr Wainscott stated was an ‘unusually intensive’ regime, the horses were injected with Hemo-15 between 8am and 8.30am for the first three days of the trial. Dr Wainscott stated that ‘this was a practise that trainers and veterinarians would almost never have good cause to administer registered products containing cobalt on consecutive days and that such administration would commonly be outside of manufacturer’s recommendations.” http://www.racing.com/news/2015-01-19/the-cobalt-threshold

And here is another interesting article, http://www.racing.com/news/2015-01-14/what-is-cobalt

For mine, I'll accept the word of these far more educated people and go with the idea that overloading horses with cobalt may have disastrous effects on them!

[Messenger]

That is so comprehensive, thanks Phil
Make sure you read that first link Jack - pretty hard to argue with

- Within 24 hours after a third administration the urinary Cobalt concentrations of all five horses had returned almost to pre-treatment baseline levels.

http://www.racing.com/news/2015-01-19/the-cobalt-threshold

[Danno]

Makes me really laugh when I see the defence statements being made by some people who have been caught out with this....( I have to say, many have been busted for other substances) , but try the "my horse must have abnormally high existing levels" bullshit that has been put forward by someone for every new substance found to be administered for the effect of performance enhancement since Ben Hurr raced in the Roman Colluseum!

[Longroad]

Jack, I'm happy to provide you with my details regarding this if you want to send that info thru. it is very polarising this whole cobalt issue.
But If the science says its impossible to go over the 200mg level with vitamins and, high levels of cobalt act like EPO i'm all for trainers being rubbed out.

[Messenger]

James, I think in post 679 Phil has provided the info on the tests Jack was referring to. I am wondering why Jack has not replied to it - could it be that it does not support what he claimed?

[DRUIDRACING]

Explain to me why would you test brood mares with cobalt products????. I think a controlled "in work" regime would work better however that opens up a different ethical situation. May have to be done to get reliable results but the horses must not race only amongst themselves. I wonder if the owners of the Broodmares used in this study were notified ????. As the industry discovers new substances that can have an effect a horses you see the rise and falls of many participants and there horses. Many of the horses either dont race again or rarely improve on their previous performances once they have been proven positive. I believe these substances damage the vital organs of these horses who have been pressed to their maximum to many times.

[Messenger]

Explain to me why would you test brood mares with cobalt products????. I think a controlled "in work" regime would work better however that opens up a different ethical situation. May have to be done to get reliable results but the horses must not race only amongst themselves. I wonder if the owners of the Broodmares used in this study were notified ????. As the industry discovers new substances that can have an effect a horses you see the rise and falls of many participants and there horses. Many of the horses either dont race again or rarely improve on their previous performances once they have been proven positive. I believe these substances damage the vital organs of these horses who have been pressed to their maximum to many times.

Steve, they would deliberately choose broodmares because they are not going to race again. The owners would have known about it

[allanjg]

craig demmler charged ,colalt...stewards wrap HRV web site.

[Messenger]

The Age still going for the gallops accused

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/the-cobalt-saga-integrity-is-everything-in-racing-20150917-gjol1n.html

but the bigger and more confusing story is the supposed attempt to put a spy in the Moody stable

The Age is reporting that chief steward Terry Bailey is saying it is nonsense

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/peter-moody-threatens-to-quit-stewards-say-spy-in-stable-claims-nonsense-20150916-gjobqj.html

while The Sun seems to be suggesting the opposite - including quotes from the intended spy/stablehand.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/racing-victoria-chiefs-offered-michael-healy-secret-payments-to-spy-on-peter-moody/story-fnibcaa0-1227530832366

Personally, I don't care what tactics Stewards use to ensure a clean industry but one thing for sure is that Moody seems to be very frazzled nowadays

[gutwagon]

The more P Moody speaks and complains about the rules and stewards, it seems he is just digging himself a bigger hole. He admits to breaking rules just because he thinks they are stupid rules !
I have no problems with spies being sent into stables, if you are following the rules whats the problem ? There are some people who just don't belong in any of the racing codes ! The sooner they are weeded out the better.

[Richard prior]

I'm guessing that Racing Victoria are taking their time due to any possible legal ramifications if the matter is challenged in Court and the Accuseds defence teams just happen to have it thrown out, This could run into 10's of millions of dollars in compensation, The main thing is to have an air tight case if it's a long drawn out battle.

[teecee]

Please remember that Mr Moody and others have yet to have their cases heard, yet to have their day in court, yet to be convicted or acquitted. Whether future events prove comments made here and now to be right or wrong is not any form of justification for them appearing on this forum now. None of us can predict the future.
On that basis there is too much comment here which is directed at people in this situation which is of a personal nature.This forum deals with issues not personalities. If the posts re personalities continues as it has lately this thread may close and the 99% of relevant sensible discussion on the issue will not be further advanced.
Any posts which contain material directly offensive or insulting to any party will be deleted. Accordingly the poster can expect a ban.
Thanking you in anticipation of keeping the discussion open and flowing in a mature manner reflecting that we are all adults on here.

[Messenger]

Patrick Bartley seems to be suggesting that the Moody case is being played out in the media and he is critical of his peers

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/peter-moody-on-the-brink-of-unravelling-20150918-gjprvc.html

[barney]

Without mentioning names but it is not like they are allegations the trainers have all been charged and do have positive swabs so horses did race with illegal levels of cobalt The only question i guess is how did the levels get there

[Chariots]

Some significant penalties handed out by Racing NSW

http://www.racingnsw.com.au/site/_content/document/00001402-source.pdf

Camilleri and Butterfield have taken to Twitter to declare how hard done by they are.

[Messenger]

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-scandal-sam-kavanagh-banned-for-more-than-nine-years-20150920-gjr4cx.html

The Brent Zerafa 3mth suspension shows how big a broom they are wielding - more or less suspended for not tipping what he backed

and the last 5 paragraphs of this comment piece by Patrick Bartley sheds more light on what he terms the 'media circus'

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-penalties-a-real-warning-for-those-awaiting-their-turn-20150921-gjrpmr.html

[squaregaiter]

The write ups are not a good look for the entire racing industry full stop and one would think with most penalties reduced by around the 50% making any appeals even harder however the really bad look for the industry is where punters at home tune into a monopoly for vision content and you have a wager in the belief you are getting the up to date info at the last minute from the mounting yard and you put your hard earned on it only to read the Steward Report that now makes you wonder what are the REAL market movers and what is not, very sad situation with more yet to come obviously
http://www.racingnsw.com.au/default.aspx?s=latest-news-display&id=18641

[squaregaiter]

NSW Stewards have advised today the following
"Mr Brent Zerafa has lodged an all grounds appeal against conviction and penalty after being disqualified for 3 months by Racing NSW Stewards acting under AR175A, finding him guilty under that charge of conduct prejudicial to the image and/or interests of racing.
Mr Zerafa has been granted a stay of proceedings in these terms by the panel: "On the application of the Appellant, which is not opposed by Stewards, penalty imposed by Stewards stayed until further order of the Panel."
No date has been set for the appeal

[barney]

What i have trouble understanding is why so long of delay before cases go to the appropriate board.Another Vic trainer done today for co2(i wont mention name) adjourned to a date to be fixed

[Chariots]

The whole judicial system is subject to extensive legal scrutiny these days and the Stewards have to ensure that there is no denial of natural justice.

In the "good old days" many of these cases would have been wrapped up in a few days, a week at the most.

[Messenger]

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/chance-one-in-27-million-of-cobalt-reading-occurring-naturally-hopes-hearing-told-20151015-gka722.html

The Hopes case being heard for the gallopers. Their 3 positives were not just a little over but 270, 450 and 510mg/L

[Fan of Jate]

How do they actually test for this stuff? i.e what methods do stewards use? It may have been posted here but too many to read-cheers

[Messenger]

It is tested by way of a urine sample Pat.
Interesting between race interview on Racing.com with gallops trainer John Leek just now
He has a positive to cobalt awaiting adjudication
He said that he had a horse test with a 203 reading while another just got under with 190
He said that prior to this he did not know what cobalt was
He said that when his horses are in serious work they are fed Hygain and he now knows that cobalt is listed on the bag
He said that nearing racing his horses are given B12 injections and that he did not know that there is cobalt in them
Most interesting insight for me was that he said in the fortnight leading up to a horse racing they would be given a vitamin injection every 2nd day

[Danno]

Can I add one little snippet to the "COBALT PROBLEM"


since the substance's use/abuse has become more widely "known" and some folks have been put in the paddock for a while, ( all of whom assumed a "not guilty" stance) there has been any number of self proclaimed experts claiming "it" is in everything......well it almost is....problem for some people is its not in high enough concentrations to make a difference to a bees knee in the products that are commonly used in horse welfare/health.


If some one gets a reading near the levels that have been put in place, in "normal circumstances" ie; not the one in a million horse. it can be reasonably deduced that the average, run of he mill treatment program that horses subjected to high stress racing and training programs has been tweeked in a way that is not just abnormal, but is actually cheating the other participants in the game.....breeders, owners, trainers, drivers, punters, the overall welfare of harness racing and people who are just avid spectators all get DUDDED!




AND....there seems to be fewer high cobalt readings due to " mistakes" lately....?????? wonder what would happen if the current VERY easy to manage limits were tightened???

[Messenger]

It is tested by way of a urine sample Pat.
Interesting between race interview on Racing.com with gallops trainer John Leek just now
He has a positive to cobalt awaiting adjudication
He said that he had a horse test with a 203 reading while another just got under with 190
He said that prior to this he did not know what cobalt was
He said that when his horses are in serious work they are fed Hygain and he now knows that cobalt is listed on the bag
He said that nearing racing his horses are given B12 injections and that he did not know that there is cobalt in them
Most interesting insight for me was that he said in the fortnight leading up to a horse racing they would be given a vitamin injection every 2nd day
It has been pointed out to me that I may have been gullible in believing this and that it is just the trainer building a defence for himself

[Boydy]

I have been silent on this issue for a long period of time as frankly I am disillusioned with the whole process, but Danno today finally I cannot contain my silence as what you have said today is totally incorrect in all cases and I only have intimate details of one case.

Firstly, not everyone has plead "Not Guilty" so that statement is totally incorrect. In the case I know the trainer never tried to plead guilty as he understood that he had presented the horse over the limit but what were the circumstances leading up to the horse racing.

The horse was received from another trainer two days before the race. The trainers first mistake was to nominate horse when he was not in possession of the horse. Naive, silly and perhaps even reckless but nothing in comparison to a drug conviction.

Something that really bothers me, is people believe that the line of HRNSW that 10mls for three consecutive days is an outrageous amount of supplements as per their Case Study is excessive. The horse that produced a positive swab received 600ml of supplements (Combined VAM, Hemoplex, Hemo-15 (200ml each)) over a 21 day period as testified by the previous trainer yet HRNSW maintained this was consistent with their testing regime.

Also HRNSW has done some testing on a horse that was with a previous cobalt convicted trainer and HRNSW actually tested this horse 2 time post it being given to a another trainer. The trainer requested the tests from HRNSW. Both times more than 3 weeks after receiving the horse the horse still tested over or around the 200ug/L. I spoke to that trainer and we prepared a stat dec for them to sign that the horse had not been treated with any more supplements but unfortunately to my dismay due to "personal reasons" he bailed out on signing and returning it.

From what I have seen there is way more to this issue than you think. I was shocked and disgusted by the attitude and cooperation of some people within the industry.

Finally I would like to add the trainer in question had about 10 swabs done previously and one other on the same day. The highest previously from memory was 17 and the other horse on the day 13. The only difference where the horse had been for the last month.

[Danno]

Adam, if you are going to tell me I'm incorrect you wanna start reading my posts, not what you want to read INTO it.

e.g. "Firstly, not everyone has plead "Not Guilty" so that statement is totally incorrect" please read " all of whom assumed a "not guilty" stance"....can you spot the difference now mate?

you state I'm "totally incorrect in all cases and I (meaning yourself) only have intimate details of one case" Adam if you are gunna have a shot at me you better get your ducks all in a row mate because you have massive holes and some incomprehensible "stuff" in your post.

Adam, I am aware of the case you mention and it is sad that this bloke got busted, I would like to consider the bloke a friend and I'm certain he has been a victim of circumstances, but the unfortunate fact of the matter is the rule says "present a horse" and for that he was guilty.

you seem to think HRNSW is getting all of this Cobalt issue wrong off a tiny bit of information, if that is the case I would encourage you to extend your reading on the subject, I am not a chemist however I have done considerable research on the subject, hence the comments I have made have not been rash and unmeasured.


I have heard on the grapevine that there is a "mystery horse" that keeps getting high Cobalt readings just standing around in the paddock, and this IS possible, just not in every second horse like some people would have us all believe, trust me Adam, there are no "fairies at the bottom of the garden"

[Danno]

another one,




http://harnessnews.com.au/2015/10/cobalt-trainer-disqualified-until-2027/

[Boydy]

Danno, you state

"since the substance's use/abuse has become more widely "known" and some folks have been put in the paddock for a while, ( all of whom assumed a "not guilty" stance)"

Seems pretty clear to me that you are suggesting that everyone has pleaded "Not Guilty" or are you just talking about the folks that pleaded "Not Guilty" Either way you have got your facts wrong or you have just written a comments that is ridiculously deceiving??

With regards to the case in general and the overall stance on prohibited substances, I say that every case should be assessed on its merits. For example a NSW harness racing trainer presented a horse in NSW in the last 18 months that tested positive to morphine. The test showed that the trainer in question has fed the horse with contaminated feed that he produced himself and got 0 months penalty. Surely as a fair and reasonable person you would concede that as being the person who fed and produced the feed he is more liable than a person that received a horse from another trainer that had administered a ridiculous amount (twice as much per day on average over 700% longer than HRNSW tests) of cobalt containing substances to the horse in the corresponding 21 days. The trainer in question had a 25 year unblemished record with regard controlled substances.

I am sorry I do not subscribe that theory that a few innocent men (Stupid but not a drug cheat) or at least one should pay the price to persecute the truly guilty.

[broco]

Wow boydy easy to know what your insinuating by using that above example.
I think anyone who isn't clutching at straws can tell you the difference there, the first is a contaminated feed product which many a trainer has had positives for and gotten off on as what is picked up in a baler is far from most farmers control, unless you have the ole plough horse out and doing it by hand lol.
The other is a simple matter of an adminstered substance that the trainer has presented the horse to race with in its system, had the trainer given the horse a little more time in his barn than maybe he might not find himself in the position he is currently in but he didn't and bingo.
Dont think it takes much imagination to find a large difference in the 2 cases

[Boydy]

Monique there is obviously a difference in the 2 cases but the comparison I am using is did the trainer know that the horse was being presented prohibited substance free? I may be cynic but if I cut my feed out of a paddock and if I do not go and inspect the paddock prior to the processing or even further I know there is a heap of poppies in my field and cut it anyway and I not liable. Apparently the rule is absolute so if I present my horse with a prohibited substance how can I attract zero penalty. I personally agree with this if it is an accident or not intentional. Therefore I use the comparison if you receive a horse from another trainer and it has an elevated prohibited substance reading from a substance that the substance has never been comprehensively tested even close to the manner admitted by the previous trainer than surely this must be considered. I reiterate 600ml of cobalt containing substance over 21 days vs 30ml over 3 days. Even a reasonable person must understand that the testing has been totally inadequate. The facts are that harness racing trainers do not have hundreds of thousands of dollars to test the horses (Need at least 5) to prove their innocence. I know you are involved in the industry and I would suggest to any trainer never race a horse until at least 3 weeks after receiving the horse no matter how credible.

[Richard prior]

Totally agree with the last 3 lines Adam and maybe the Authority's should implement that with a change of trainer and make it 28 days, Certainly have to be feeling for young friend and yes he is a victim of circumstances and getting back to the wording of some of your exchanges with Dan and I'm not taking sides but isn't a person or persons Innocent or Not Guilty until proven otherwise???

[broco]

Cant agree with you sorry as ive certainly checked paddocks before harvest and missed pockets of weeds that have popped up close to cut especially if that plant isn't one that grows as high as the crop your in, so yes I can easily see it as an unknown honest mistake.
I also cant see how either case is similar, it is still heresay that the horse came into the stable with the already elevated cobalt level, 2x very different cases and because I know the first case well I know why its mentioned and why your using it as an example but I really dont think its anything similar, why not use the cases such as those where thornapple have been found round stables and the trainers have got off exact same thing, one would argue if you had your horse out to graze you would clean your weeds up.

As for making it a 28day gap between getting a horse and racing it I feel thats ridiculous, thats a months training fees for sitting around, the majority of substances used tend to have a 7 day clearance (bute etc) at best and you dont often see trainers nominating new horses before that I presume for that very reason and if it were a substance like hormones etc that takes a long amount of time to leave the horses system and is barred then I would presume this would be looked upon as such in those circumstances

[Richard prior]

Absolutley correct about the 28 days Monique but there certainly needs to be a period if a horse has a change of stables.

[Messenger]

I can see the gallops letting off the cobalt accused with little more than a slap on the wrist. Hopes change their plea to guilty at the suggestion of the chair as it will entitle them to a lesser penalty

[Boydy]

Sorry I have taken some time to respond and to be honest a mate of mine said don't do it, but here I go.
Don't get me wrong I am not suggesting that the feed was intentionally contaminated or otherwise. I genuinely believe that if an accident occurs then the trainer should lose the race and face no further penalty. Although being a cynic I now think that if you wanted to pull a scam in this regard it may not be as difficult as you think to orchestrate this type of skull-duggery. Although I am sure that if there was some massive fixed odds plunge or a big reversal in form then the stewards would be all over this so my comments are very much tongue in cheek.
However I use this example more to highlight the fact that trainers could and in this case most certainly has presented a horse that had an elevated reading to a prohibited substance due to the administration by a previous trainer. It is quite simple. HRNSW test were conducted with 30 ml of cobalt containing substance that they concede is way above both recommended and reasonable usage. The only other study was in the US that administered one massive injection in cobalt but even the HRNSW shows smaller amounts over a prolonged period of time is more effective and has a cumulative effect. However apparently it is certain in the eyes of HRNSW that 600ml of cobalt containing supplements over 21 days could not produce a elevated reading over a prolonged period of time. The facts are and don't kid yourself other harness racing participants what if you were the one and simply did not have the resources to complete a test like HRNSW. The answer is you would just have to take the hit and serve your 2.5 year penalty.

[Boydy]

Whether it was made compulsory or not, based on what I have seen happen over the last 12 months if I bought a horse I would totally understand if my trainer decieded to not race a horse for at least a fortnight if not even longer. Quite frankly even if you get the horse off someone you know it is simply not worth the risk.
With regards the shooting I am not sure why this is in this thread. With all due respect I doubt that this has anything to do with the ongoing Cobalt cases. There have been plenty of colourful characters in Melbourne racing that are far more likely.

[Messenger]

Good point Boydy - moved to Thoroughbred Forum

[Messenger]

Racing NSW to challenge Kevin Moses' cobalt reprieve

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/racing-nsw-to-challenge-kevin-moses-cobalt-reprieve-20151028-gkl8g6.html

I cannot help but feel that there is a large proportion of the gallops world that are not interested in a hardline approach

[allanjg]

maybe their a bit gun shy.:rolleyes:

[DRUIDRACING]

Cant have the elite racing code being demonised by chemicals .........by all reports and I have said before this will dissappear into the back ground.

I agree with Messenger and his comment "that they are not interested in a hard line approach".

Does any one know what Japanese horses are allowed to be treated with in there country ?

I see different States in the USA allow the bleeder treatment for both gallops and trots.

Very few horses go to Hong Kong who frown upon some chemicals and have a threshold of 100 for cobalt. (also no american Trainers) may have changed.

I wonder if the Moses case will effect HRNSW rulings on the same product following this case. ?

[Messenger]

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-inquiry-leigh-and-shannon-hope-case-hears-final-submissions-20151104-gkqwlu.html

...............................................
In the end, Gleeson said all the evidence and all studies were in agreement that the only way to exceed Racing Victoria's 200 micrograms per litre [of urine] cobalt threshold was administration of intravenous cobalt on race day or preceding race day.
The Hopes have denied any such cobalt administration, but claim their supplement regime and their experts' proposed theory of "bio-accumulation" explain the high readings.
Gleeson countered by saying that when the Hopes' supplement regime was replicated, the cobalt levels rose from only five to 10mcg per litre, nowhere near the 200mcg threshold.
Gleeson said since testing began in Victoria there had been 1650 race-day samples, with only 21 above 100mcg per litre, and 10 of those were the Hopes' horses.
................................

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-inquiry-leigh-and-shannon-hope-case-hears-final-submissions-20151104-gkqwlu.html

[Fan of Jate]

All horse & Dog trainers who are found guilty of being drug cheats should get a minimum 1 yr ban and a life ban if they exceed the limits by massive doses and are shown to be serial cheats. There are too many excuses by all concerned including forum writers when someone is found to have broken the rules. I agree with Kevin's post- no-one seems interested in taking a hardline approach to this issue. I feel sorry for the honest trainer who busts his/her guts and has to compete against these scumbags

[Messenger]

They are timing their verdicts until after the carnival finishes so maybe there is some hope that penalties are in the offing

[Messenger]

I should have linked this one yesterday but just in case anyone missed it

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/lee-and-shannon-hope-banned-over-cobalt-charges-20151116-gl0mvu.html

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/hopes-hit-with-biggest-doping-penalties-in-history-as-culture-changes-20151117-gl11e5.html

I think Racing got serious but I suspect we could have lengthy appeals ahead especially when/if the others are found guilty

[Richard prior]

In the first article from The Age, And their 10% share of prizemoney, Totalling $50,000 which was held in trust from Group and Listed races, Will be returned to the Hopes.
??????????????????????????

[Messenger]

It does sound strange Rich and at first I thought it must have been a typo but then I remembered that they were one of the training teams under investigation who did not quibble about having all their % withheld (some of the others objected and in the end only had their Gp race %'s withheld).
I am assuming that the withholding was a case of 'looking to be doing something' by the authorities and was supposedly for in the event that any of their future winners tested positive or maybe in the event that they received large fines as their penalty. Without fines in the penalty I cannot imagine that you could convince any court that you can allow someone to work but withhold part of their wages indefinitely.

[teecee]

http://www.harnesslink.com/USA/Phase-one-of-Cobalt-study-now-Complete

[Messenger]

We will have to follow that study Tony, thanks for the link

Noticed in the gallops world that the Hope's appeal is not being heard until Feb so they effectively get 3mths of training since being found guilty

[Big Mac]

Kev,
I do not condone cheating in any way. However we do need to allow those involved to exhaust avenues of appeal. A large number of people are involved. Staff, owners and a whole lot of others. I don't think it would be fair on all involved if this was not allowed.

[Messenger]

I agree Dean and it would be purgatory to have it hanging over your head - it would seem better for all if appeals could be heard in a month or so

[Messenger]

Dean, I read in the paper today that the stewards opposed the granting of the stay so they obviously do not think they should get any benefit from appealing

[barney]

If you get a positive for drink driving or drug driving , you are suspended straight away even if take case to court and if you lose but appeal would not be allowed to drive until appeal heard.This could also mean lack of income if you are a proffesinal driver. Why the differnce they have proven positives had there day in court and lost yet can still train and win races nothing changed.

[hillbillydeluxe]

Unfortunately those who have positives will utilise all avenues to appeal as the various laws govern what to allow and what not to but certain trainers who have higher earning capacity will have appeals heard 6-12 months from time of offence and I think you can apply for extra time due to health concerns etc so add on another 6 months and inevitably they still earn, buy horses, punt & in the meantime persons like myself who own horses in both codes suffer.
What I mean by that is I punt my horses to pay for there monthly bills, makes up about 50% so it eases the pressure of having 10 in work but I only use country trainers that in both codes have good and local ethics, proven over time (History).
I would not give my horse to the ones who have had previous charges laid as you know the old saying that those that mix in certain circles usually know what is going on.
Refer back to The Sam Kavanagh case with certain Harness identities who there characters preceeded them.

[Messenger]

Good points you make Brian and Michael and are probably the logic behind the stewards opposing a stay.
It would be interesting to have a db of Trainers records to assist those who prioritize ethics when seeking a trainer. No doubt word of mouth is invaluable but if in doubt, I imagine googling someone nowadays is generally going to find any offences they have been found guilty of.

[Big Mac]

Michael,
all great points. Only thing is, the case going on at the moment doesn't fit in those categories,
And with your pre-requisites could have been a trainer for you.
I Struggle to see why the Hopes would risk a 50 year clear history to use a substance for gain in lowly races and not have a bet. It certainly wasn't for prize money. And to top it off the horses ran badly, and didn't ever look wining chances. I'll wait and see how this plays out.

[Messenger]

Forget motives, records etc Dean - explain those high readings

[Messenger]

I certainly agree with PB about this

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/racings-image-suffers-as-cobalt-cases-drag-on-20151129-glarv9.html

I am not so sure that Danny O'Brien would still be looking forward to the case (see attached Snip - best I could do as although I read The Sun today, I am not a subsciber) after this development

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/new-guilty-pleas-from-vet-at-centre-of-cobalt-thoroughbred-charges-20151130-glbtzu.html

[Boydy]

Just wondering what people think of the opinion of one of the leading vets in Australia on Cobalt are??

https://audioboom.com/boos/3904249-nick-kannegieter-4-12-15

There appears to be some serious questions at least whether Cobalt is a Class 1. According to Dr Nick Kannegieter, definitely not.

[Messenger]

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/cobalt-saga-danny-obrien-accused-of-lying-to-stewards-by-racing-victoria-counsel-20151207-glh9mu.html

It would seem that Mr Gleeson thinks Danny O'Brien is a bit shifty

[Rob Nalder]

Just wondering what people think of the opinion of one of the leading vets in Australia on Cobalt are??

https://audioboom.com/boos/3904249-nick-kannegieter-4-12-15

There appears to be some serious questions at least whether Cobalt is a Class 1. According to Dr Nick Kannegieter, definitely not.

Adam, No one can question Doctor Nicks knowledge and understanding of our great equine breed. This very forthright opinion he has expressed must raise several questions about Cobalt once again. The one point that nobody disagrees with is the point about large massive readings are extremely dangerous to the horse and should be dealt with as being totally harmful to the horse in question. Having said that I am still trying to understand all the factual details around Cobalt being a proven performance enhancer. We know it is extremely toxic in large quantities but I must admit I am yet to find any form of factual detail that can but to rest once and for all that Cobalt is a performance enhancer in the equine breed. I think we that have tried to stay fully educated on what has been put out there on Cobalt are all waiting to see the findings / research / studies presently being undertaken around the World on this very subject. One thing I do know is over the next 12 - 18 months we should all have the findings on this issue finally expressed in a way we can all agree on,one and for all.
All the best and keep up the research on it all.

Rob Nalder

[Boydy]

Rob,

Thanks for the comments, normally information that differs from the "Lynch Mob" mentality don't get any type of response. I agree with you that anyone that is using non approved supplements to treat horses deserve everything they get. If participants are using concoctions brewed up by some wood-be chemist give them life. Its that simple and I have no sympathy for those people.

The issues with cobalt are, no testing has every been done on long term use, with all due respect 3 days is not long term. No testing has ever been done what the retention periods are if you received a horse that has been given high levels of cobalt particularly by another party, although HRNSW has done testing on a horse from a cobalt disqualified trainer however never chose to seize the horse. I often wonder why they seize horses with TCO2 but never seize the horse in question with regards cobalt. The cynic in me tells me it might prove something they do not want to prove. No testing or research has ever been done as to what are the performance enhancing traits of Cobalt or if there actually are any. Finally, under HRNSW own guidelines a Class 1 substance is a substance that should not be used for horses. Clearly approved substances contain Cobalt and even HRNSW trials that a horse can get over the level with approved supplements.

My feelings are that the majority of people convicted of Cobalt Offences are guilty and the industry feeling is, oh well to bad if the innocent minority have to pay the price. Guilty or not guilty I do not think that Cobalt in anyway can be shown as a Class 1 substance and maybe some time in the future this comment will be shown incorrect. If you follow Dr Nick logic any trainer should be injecting their horses with Cobalt containing supplements weeks before they race to get the supposed unproven EPO effect.

Like I said previously any trainer injecting or treating their horse with an unapproved substance should get life.

[Messenger]

Rob,

Thanks for the comments, normally information that differs from the "Lynch Mob" mentality don't get any type of response. I agree with you that anyone that is using non approved supplements to treat horses deserve everything they get. If participants are using concoctions brewed up by some wood-be chemist give them life. Its that simple and I have no sympathy for those people.

The issues with cobalt are, no testing has every been done on long term use, with all due respect 3 days is not long term. No testing has ever been done what the retention periods are if you received a horse that has been given high levels of cobalt particularly by another party, although HRNSW has done testing on a horse from a cobalt disqualified trainer however never chose to seize the horse. I often wonder why they seize horses with TCO2 but never seize the horse in question with regards cobalt. The cynic in me tells me it might prove something they do not want to prove. No testing or research has ever been done as to what are the performance enhancing traits of Cobalt or if there actually are any. Finally, under HRNSW own guidelines a Class 1 substance is a substance that should not be used for horses. Clearly approved substances contain Cobalt and even HRNSW trials that a horse can get over the level with approved supplements.

My feelings are that the majority of people convicted of Cobalt Offences are guilty and the industry feeling is, oh well to bad if the innocent minority have to pay the price. Guilty or not guilty I do not think that Cobalt in anyway can be shown as a Class 1 substance and maybe some time in the future this comment will be shown incorrect. If you follow Dr Nick logic any trainer should be injecting their horses with Cobalt containing supplements weeks before they race to get the supposed unproven EPO effect.

Like I said previously any trainer injecting or treating their horse with an unapproved substance should get life.

So that I know what to look out for in the future - are you saying that horses using approved supplements only can register a 200+ positive - How can anybody be found guilty, these gallops trainers have nothing to worry about

[Boydy]

Kevin, no I am not saying that.

However in my opinion and more importantly a world renowned vet like Nick Kannegieter has said that there is insufficient research to prove what the effects of cobalt are on horses in different situations and whether they are performance enhancing. The reality is the stewards cannot determine the difference between a positive swab from an approved supplement or a unapproved concoction. Unless like one trainer in NSW they found the concoction in his stables.

I believe that ever case should be access on its merits but with regards Cobalt I do not think this has happened.

With regards Peter Moody considering he seems to have no connection with disgraced vets, disqualified persons or colourful racing identities I think he it maybe be advantageous in him fighting his case.

[Messenger]

Kevin, no I am not saying that.

However in my opinion and more importantly a world renowned vet like Nick Kannegieter has said that there is insufficient research to prove what the effects of cobalt are on horses in different situations and whether they are performance enhancing. The reality is the stewards cannot determine the difference between a positive swab from an approved supplement or a unapproved concoction. Unless like one trainer in NSW they found the concoction in his stables.

I believe that ever case should be access on its merits but with regards Cobalt I do not think this has happened.

With regards Peter Moody considering he seems to have no connection with disgraced vets, disqualified persons or colourful racing identities I think he it maybe be advantageous in him fighting his case.

Adam, if you are not saying that then this statement seems highly ambiguous

"Clearly approved substances contain Cobalt and even HRNSW trials that a horse can get over the level with approved supplements."

[Boydy]

Kevin,

I am not sure why you consider this ambiguous.

Approved supplements such as Hemoplex, Hemo-15 and VAM all contain cobalt.

HRNSW trials used 10ml of Hemo-15 for 3 consecutive days and recorded levels well in excess 200ug/L.

There is one disqualified trainer that received a horse from another trainer and the original trainer has testified that they treated the horse with 600ml (Combined 200ml of each) of Hemo-15, Hemoplex and VAM in 22 days and apparently the testing HRNSW has conducted is consistent with this regime.

Kevin, you are an educated man, would you be comfortable with the HRNSW trial being used as a comparison against yourself. The only other trial was completed in the US where a massive dose of Cobalt was given in one administration. However, even HRNSW testing shows the levels rise if you treat horse with smaller doses over a longer period.

[allanjg]

hi adam and kevin,i have just read post 739 from you adam and i think that the legal limit of cobalt allowed in a swab is 200mg/L of urine and not 200ug/L of urine...as hemo-15 contains 0.7 mg cobalt per 1 ml of hemo-15 and the recommended dose is 10ml per 100 kg of horse per treatment it only stands to reason that the horse will have a high ug/L reading.... just to refresh every ones minds 1 mg/L =1000 ug/L....i will stand corrected on this but i think that i am right.

[Boydy]

I have to correct you Allan it is 200ug/L

I will provide the link to the records.

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/uploads/files/integrity%20notices/cobalt%20results%20publication%2027082014.pdf

[Messenger]

I am really confused now Adam
I asked you
"are you saying that horses using approved supplements only can register a 200+ positive"
and you replied
"Kevin, no I am not saying that"
but then you told me
"Approved supplements such as Hemoplex, Hemo-15 and VAM all contain cobalt.
HRNSW trials used 10ml of Hemo-15 for 3 consecutive days and recorded levels well in excess 200ug/L."
So the answer is Yes?

[allanjg]

adam,adam,adam, please check this out....1ug/ml=1000ug/L or 1ug/L=0.001 ug/ml.... and as for your link,i have read that,and you will notice that 95% of the horses tested were way ,way below the legal limit.adam check out the the horses that went over the limit and you find that the trainers concerned have been rubbed out...

[Messenger]

hi adam and kevin,i have just read post 739 from you adam and i think that the legal limit of cobalt allowed in a swab is 200mg/L of urine and not 200ug/L of urine...as hemo-15 contains 0.7 mg cobalt per 1 ml of hemo-15 and the recommended dose is 10ml per 100 kg of horse per treatment it only stands to reason that the horse will have a high ug/L reading.... just to refresh every ones minds 1 mg/L =1000 ug/L....i will stand corrected on this but i think that i am right.

It is 200ug/L Allan

[Messenger]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Hearing-leaves-murky-portrait-of-invisible-man-Adam-Matthews-in-Sydney-Melbourne-cobalt-dramas

"Courtesy of last week’s dramatic cobalt hearing in Australia before the Racing Appeals and Disciplinary Board, a grotesque portrait now exists of handsome young horse vet Adam Matthews."
..............................

[barney]

Havent posted here for awhile but the simple fact of all this Cobalt is a banned product over a certain limit and if you present a horse to race over that limit no matter who is to blame the buck stops with the trainer and he is Guilty and must pay the price.