Nz bred vs australian bred

[DRUIDRACING]

I am interested whether it is better to buy NZ bred horses / imports or buy Australian bred. I understand some of the costs of importing but is the return really worth the extra $$$. There seem to be a lot of well bred AUS horses that seem to perform well. Any stats to back either option up.

[Greg Hando]

Support our local industry.

[Richard prior]

Steve, Do your study as there are plenty of good choices at the local sales as Greg mentioned. Merry Xmas

[The Escape Club]

Depends on what state of preparedness you want them to be and how much patience you have.

[mightymo]

Up until 5 years ago, i would have said NZ with little hesitation. No longer. The bloodlines now available in Aust(many of these are strong NZ families) are every bit as good as those in NZ.

I was only commenting the other day, that the APG sales catalogue for 2014 is the strongest i have ever seen and rivals the NZ catalogue for depth of quality.

This is a great thing as it means overall quality is up, which means owners have a greater chance of getting a horse to the races and a greater chance of then winning races.

[mightymo]

In the recent Vic Cup, there were 13 horses(incl emergency). 7 NZ bred, 6 Aust. The top 2 placegetters were Aust bred, as were 3 out of top 4 and 4 out of top 5 placegetters!

PS - i consider myself neutral on the subject as I bred extensively in both NZ and Aust

[DRUIDRACING]

thanks for the replies . the only difference with the horses as I see it now is the $$$$ and the NZ after there name.

[Viv Strangman]

In the recent Vic Cup, there were 13 horses(incl emergency). 7 NZ bred, 6 Aust. The top 2 placegetters were Aust bred, as were 3 out of top 4 and 4 out of top 5 placegetters!

PS - i consider myself neutral on the subject as I bred extensively in both NZ and Aust

Sorry Harvey but I have heard it for the last forty years. Nothing has changed in the last five years. We have always sold our mares and racing fillies to Australia since I've been in the industry and have been repeatedly told that Australia was overtaking us or better but it never happens. All that has changed is that those mares progency is now put through the yearling sales where in the past they were raced by their breeders. From Jack Honan to Mick Lombardo our fillies and mares have been brought in Nz and bred from in Australia for decades. So what is the missing ingredient. In my humble opinion it is the physical enviroment . Due to the temperate climate and pasture that goes with that, Nz will always have a major advantage over Australia when it comes to rearing young horses. Many Australians breed their horses in Nz for that reason.

[Richard prior]

Hi Viv, Totally agree the pastures and climate play a big part in the foals upbringing but the gap has narrowed somewhat in the ability some of our pacers are showing and a bit of this is due to the purchasing of very good fillies and broodmares from New Zealand and North America, But I think that we are still a long way behind NZ with the Trotting fraternity.

[eliteblood]

Sorry Harvey but I have heard it for the last forty years. Nothing has changed in the last five years. We have always sold our mares and racing fillies to Australia since I've been in the industry and have been repeatedly told that Australia was overtaking us or better but it never happens. All that has changed is that those mares progency is now put through the yearling sales where in the past they were raced by their breeders. From Jack Honan to Mick Lombardo our fillies and mares have been brought in Nz and bred from in Australia for decades. So what is the missing ingredient. In my humble opinion it is the physical enviroment . Due to the temperate climate and pasture that goes with that, Nz will always have a major advantage over Australia when it comes to rearing young horses. Many Australians breed their horses in Nz for that reason.

Viv,

If you look at the results you will find that a lot has changed in the last 10 years. The constant plundering of our group races by NZ bred horses has dried up. No race bears that out more emphatically than the Vic Derby, a race that always attracts the very best 3YO's from both countries. For 8 years in succession from 1996 to 2003 it was won by a NZ bred colt. In the 10 years since then it has been won only 3 times by a NZ bred colt and 7 times by an Aust bred colt.
The first 5 runnings of the Chariots of Fire were won by NZ bred colts. In the 13 runnings since then it has been won 8 times by an Aust bred and only 5 by a NZ bred.
What has changed in recent years that might explain the shift ?
It is not the grass and it is not the broodmare bands. What has changed very significantly is the quality of the stallions now available to Australian breeders. Over the years, a succession of very good stallions stood in NZ (including In The Pocket, Holmes Hanover, Smooth Fella, Vance Hanover, Falcon Seelster, Christian Cullen and most recently Bettors Delight and Mach Three). By contrast Australia based stallions were generally not in the same ball park. The status quo changed however when unlimited books were allowed in Australia along with the use of transported semen. Not only could Aust breeders access the same stallions that NZ breeders had available to them by way of chilled semen but they could also now afford to acquire the very best USA stallions and stallion prospects. Along came Fake Left followed a little later by Grinfromeartoear and Art Major. In the last few years Australian stallion ranks have been boosted by the presence of Somebeachsomewhere, Rocknroll Hanover, Sportswriter, Rock n Roll Heaven, Shadow Play and Roll With Joe. In the same time NZ studs have acquired ............?
The world has changed Viv. The resurgence of the Australian bred pacer has a full head of steam and the kiwi studs need to do something in a hurry if they don't want to be left behind.

[Viv Strangman]

Viv,

If you look at the results you will find that a lot has changed in the last 10 years. The constant plundering of our group races by NZ bred horses has dried up. No race bears that out more emphatically than the Vic Derby, a race that always attracts the very best 3YO's from both countries. For 8 years in succession from 1996 to 2003 it was won by a NZ bred colt. In the 10 years since then it has been won only 3 times by a NZ bred colt and 7 times by an Aust bred colt.
The first 5 runnings of the Chariots of Fire were won by NZ bred colts. In the 13 runnings since then it has been won 8 times by an Aust bred and only 5 by a NZ bred.
What has changed in recent years that might explain the shift ?
It is not the grass and it is not the broodmare bands. What has changed very significantly is the quality of the stallions now available to Australian breeders. Over the years, a succession of very good stallions stood in NZ (including In The Pocket, Holmes Hanover, Smooth Fella, Vance Hanover, Falcon Seelster, Christian Cullen and most recently Bettors Delight and Mach Three). By contrast Australia based stallions were generally not in the same ball park. The status quo changed however when unlimited books were allowed in Australia along with the use of transported semen. Not only could Aust breeders access the same stallions that NZ breeders had available to them by way of chilled semen but they could also now afford to acquire the very best USA stallions and stallion prospects. Along came Fake Left followed a little later by Grinfromeartoear and Art Major. In the last few years Australian stallion ranks have been boosted by the presence of Somebeachsomewhere, Rocknroll Hanover, Sportswriter, Rock n Roll Heaven, Shadow Play and Roll With Joe. In the same time NZ studs have acquired ............?
The world has changed Viv. The resurgence of the Australian bred pacer has a full head of steam and the kiwi studs need to do something in a hurry if they don't want to be left behind.
I know that is not a serious comment . It cant be as all the stallions you mention have been available via fresh semen for breeders in both countries for longer than i care to remember. It use to make a difference 20 years ago which country a stallion stood in but doesnt anymore and hasnt for quite a while. All the stallions you mention are available in Nz . Its simple economics for studs in both countries . And I dont want to decry the Vctorian Derby but it is a bad fit for our 3yr olds which is why you don't see our leading 3yr olds every year in it. You won't this year. The Breeders crown is fast becoming the preferred option as it is a much bettor fit with our derbys. We can all cherry pick races/stats to highlight. 13 of the top 20 stake earners in Australia last year were Kiwi bred. 3 of the top 4 stallions on your sire list last year were standing in Nz. Nz has two major issues facing it and they are interrelated. One is the dramatic fall in our foal numbers which have fallen to just over 3000 which is half what we were 15 years ago. Our industry is not sustainable at those numbers long term and a lot of effort is going into incentives to get more mares bred. The second part is our stake levels which are appalling. However both Auckland and Addington are making real progress on stakes and for once the light at the end of the tunnel may not be the train. Finally I think anyone who under plays the importance of climate and pasture in rearing horses is ignoring history. Ireland,Kentucky and New Zealand have it-- Australia doesn't

[eliteblood]

No cherry picking Viv, I just took the first two prestigious races that came to mind.
If you would prefer to focus on the Breeders Crown over the last 10 years,
2YO colts - Aus (8) NZ (2)
2YO fillies - Aus (6) NZ (4)
3YO colts - Aus (4) NZ ( 6)
3YO fillies - (Aus 8) NZ (2)

Total - Aus (26) NZ (14)

It ain't what it used to be Viv. The kiwi dominance is not there anymore. Something must have happened to your grass !!

[Viv Strangman]

No cherry picking Viv, I just took the first two prestigious races that came to mind.
If you would prefer to focus on the Breeders Crown over the last 10 years,
2YO colts - Aus (8) NZ (2)
2YO fillies - Aus (6) NZ (4)
3YO colts - Aus (4) NZ ( 6)
3YO fillies - (Aus 8) NZ (2)

Total - Aus (26) NZ (14)

It ain't what it used to be Viv. The kiwi dominance is not there anymore. Something must have happened to your grass !!
Last year is another good example of the importance Kiwi trainers place in your age group races. The money use to be so much bettor than ours at age group level but not any more. Which in the last few years has meant less and less of our age group stars chasing the Aussie money. Last year our top two year old filly Venus Serena never left Nz. Our top 3yr old filly Adore Me never left Nz. Our third best 3yr colt old went and won the 3yr old division and our best four year went and won his division. But most of our age group stars stayed in Nz. And that will happen again this year. The Kiwi horses exported to Australia on the other hand seem to more than hold their own. 13 of your top 20 stake earners last year had Nz by their name. It cant be. Australian breds are just so much bettor. And as all Australians do ,you fail to mention the trotting ranks . Your best is by a son of the Panderosa and as he showed in Nz last year he has got more holes in his game than swiss cheese. As for the rest, they are not really worthy of a comment. If your horses were as good as you say they would on a plane to Nz to steal our age group races. Some have tried but gone home empty handed. As for pasture and climate being of no importance, I think I would rather take the advice of Bart Cummings and Gai Waterhouse who are both on record as saying the climate and pasture make Nz one of the best places in the world to raise horses. But hey what would they know, they are just a couple of Aussies.

[Richard prior]

Viv, I don't think Trevor was saying that the Australian horses were so much better than the NZ horses but its quite apparent that the gap has closed a hell of a lot and a lot of it is due to the really nice choice of stallions that have been available to breeeders here in the last 10 years. I previously mentioned the trotting ranks and how all over the NZ trotting ranks are stronger, but you must admit that Blitzthemcalder is a pretty fair horse but it must really annoy the purists that he's by a pacing stallion.

[Viv Strangman]

Viv, I don't think Trevor was saying that the Australian horses were so much better than the NZ horses but its quite apparent that the gap has closed a hell of a lot and a lot of it is due to the really nice choice of stallions that have been available to breeeders here in the last 10 years. I previously mentioned the trotting ranks and how all over the NZ trotting ranks are stronger, but you must admit that Blitzthemcalder is a pretty fair horse but it must really annoy the purists that he's by a pacing stallion.

How overall the trotting ranks are stronger. They are in a different league. Australia use to produce quality trotters year in year out but for several years now the standard has been appalling. The days of your top trotters winning grand circuit group ones in New Zealand (Scotch Notch) are a distant memory. The standard hasn't gone up, its gone backwards big time. And i am sorry but in my forty years in this industry, Australia has certainly been stronger at various times than it is at present. There have been times during that period when Australia has been dominant,when Australian horses came to Nz and blew our locals away. From Westburn Grant to Steel Jaw to Scotch Notch, they were just yards better than our horses. That is not happening at the moment and hasn't for a while and yet somehow your horses are flying. Nothing I see supports that. Our stakes in the main are shocking except for the elite horses where in a lot of cases they are better than Australia. Less and less of our top youngsters are crossing the Tasman. Our top three 3yr old male trotters never left home last year where as in the past they all would have. Expect that more and more as you have to bypass the big money on offer here to chase the money over there. Sky Major and Maxim are just two examples. Raced in the Breeders Crown in August but missing from the $180,000 Sires Stakes final in November in which they would have been amongst the favourites. Underdone now as we head into the lucarative xmas racing at Auckland.Trainers know you cant do both and more and more are staying home. So when the trend turns and we have the next generation of Australians dominating in Nz like they use to ,then i will accept that the order has changed again and Autralia is back on top. Until then Kiwis are more than happy to sell our stock to Australians and with the likes of Smoken Up , I'm The Mightyquinn and Christen Me flying the Kiwi flag the buyers are as busy as ever. PS: Keep a eye out for Adore Me in the new year. as good as Nz has produced in a long time.

[Bonnie]

Just an interesting aside to this debate. The Group 1 NZ Sires 3 y/o fillies Championship Final was won today by Willow in what I believe is a NZ National Record time. Willow is an Aussie bred and raised filly , owned by an Aussie and driven and co-trained by an Aussie !. She was a yearling sales purchase from Lauriston Bloodstock by Mark Purdon and Mark came back the next year and bought another yearling from us ; Follow The Stars - an impressive winner of the first heat of the 2 year old Young Guns Series.
As for climate and pasture in Australia ; this farm would rival any that I have seen in NZ Harness Racing and rearing young horses is about achieving the correct nutritional balance to ensure proper growth rates and development . www.lauristonbloodstock.com.au

[Danno]

I should not wade into this debate, but hell I'm gunna,
when we talk about breeding the BEST, in my mind we are talking Interdominion horses, horses that can both sprint and stay, horses with strong constitiutions that can handle the rough and tumble of competition at the highest grade and back up next week for more of the same, personaly speaking, times are one thing , who you can beat is another, Joe Ilsley told me many years ago "don't get concerned about what time your horse can run, get concerned about who he can beat and who he can't"

there have been 72 editions of the Pacers interdominion FINAL, 38 won by Australian bred horses, 33 won by New Zealand breds and 1 Mr Feelgood got a mention for the USA, in the last forty years there have been 20 New Zealand bred winners, 19 Aussie bred winners and 1 x Mr Feelgood, an interesting fact is that of the 20 NZ bred winners, 13 were trained in Australia, of the 19 Australian bred winners, 19 were trained in Australia.....make of that what you like, but someone might say they improved when they got onto Aussie soil/pasture, some may say differently, who knows at the end of the day it's all conjecture anyway.

But if you want to debate, then try debating with honest info, not info twisted to suit your side of the story.

Cheers,
Dan

[mightymo]

Viv

Ask Mark Purdon what he thinks of Fly Like an Eagle, Smolda, and Border Control - all born and raised in Aust and bought by Mark from Aust yearling sales.

Imagine if they had a better upbringing....



How overall the trotting ranks are stronger. They are in a different league. Australia use to produce quality trotters year in year out but for several years now the standard has been appalling. The days of your top trotters winning grand circuit group ones in New Zealand (Scotch Notch) are a distant memory. The standard hasn't gone up, its gone backwards big time. And i am sorry but in my forty years in this industry, Australia has certainly been stronger at various times than it is at present. There have been times during that period when Australia has been dominant,when Australian horses came to Nz and blew our locals away. From Westburn Grant to Steel Jaw to Scotch Notch, they were just yards better than our horses. That is not happening at the moment and hasn't for a while and yet somehow your horses are flying. Nothing I see supports that. Our stakes in the main are shocking except for the elite horses where in a lot of cases they are better than Australia. Less and less of our top youngsters are crossing the Tasman. Our top three 3yr old male trotters never left home last year where as in the past they all would have. Expect that more and more as you have to bypass the big money on offer here to chase the money over there. Sky Major and Maxim are just two examples. Raced in the Breeders Crown in August but missing from the $180,000 Sires Stakes final in November in which they would have been amongst the favourites. Underdone now as we head into the lucarative xmas racing at Auckland.Trainers know you cant do both and more and more are staying home. So when the trend turns and we have the next generation of Australians dominating in Nz like they use to ,then i will accept that the order has changed again and Autralia is back on top. Until then Kiwis are more than happy to sell our stock to Australians and with the likes of Smoken Up , I'm The Mightyquinn and Christen Me flying the Kiwi flag the buyers are as busy as ever. PS: Keep a eye out for Adore Me in the new year. as good as Nz has produced in a long time.

[eliteblood]

Just an interesting aside to this debate. The Group 1 NZ Sires 3 y/o fillies Championship Final was won today by Willow in what I believe is a NZ National Record time. Willow is an Aussie bred and raised filly , owned by an Aussie and driven and co-trained by an Aussie !. She was a yearling sales purchase from Lauriston Bloodstock by Mark Purdon and Mark came back the next year and bought another yearling from us ; Follow The Stars - an impressive winner of the first heat of the 2 year old Young Guns Series.
As for climate and pasture in Australia ; this farm would rival any that I have seen in NZ Harness Racing and rearing young horses is about achieving the correct nutritional balance to ensure proper growth rates and development . www.lauristonbloodstock.com.au

Congratulations Anne. Excellent result.

[eliteblood]

Viv

Ask Mark Purdon what he thinks of Fly Like an Eagle, Smolda, and Border Control - all born and raised in Aust and bought by Mark from Aust yearling sales.

Imagine if they had a better upbringing....

Mark has had outstanding success with yearlings he has bought from Aus sales.
Everyone I speak to is blown away by the quality of yearlings making up the APG catalogue this year so I expect Mark, and perhaps some other forward thinking and open minded kiwis, will be active again.

[Greg Hando]

Come to Rosewood,Pepper Tree, Success, Golden Gait. Viv you wont find better looked after or contented horses anywhere.These are from our region in NSW no disrespect to any other studs as just using as an example.

[eliteblood]

Come to Rosewood,Pepper Tree, Success, Golden Gait. Viv you wont find better looked after or contented horses anywhere.These are from our region in NSW no disrespect to any other studs as just using as an example.

Viv might also like to look up thoroughbred studs like Arrowfield, Coolmore, Darley, etc., etc. and the champion horses that they breed and sell in Australia (Gai Waterhouse being one of the most prolific buyers)

[aussiebreno]

I should not wade into this debate, but hell I'm gunna,
when we talk about breeding the BEST, in my mind we are talking Interdominion horses, horses that can both sprint and stay, horses with strong constitiutions that can handle the rough and tumble of competition at the highest grade and back up next week for more of the same, personaly speaking, times are one thing , who you can beat is another, Joe Ilsley told me many years ago "don't get concerned about what time your horse can run, get concerned about who he can beat and who he can't"

there have been 72 editions of the Pacers interdominion FINAL, 38 won by Australian bred horses, 33 won by New Zealand breds and 1 Mr Feelgood got a mention for the USA, in the last forty years there have been 20 New Zealand bred winners, 19 Aussie bred winners and 1 x Mr Feelgood, an interesting fact is that of the 20 NZ bred winners, 13 were trained in Australia, of the 19 Australian bred winners, 19 were trained in Australia.....make of that what you like, but someone might say they improved when they got onto Aussie soil/pasture, some may say differently, who knows at the end of the day it's all conjecture anyway.

But if you want to debate, then try debating with honest info, not info twisted to suit your side of the story.

Cheers,
Dan

Danno, if you want honest info I thini it would be remiss of you not to factor in number of horses bred and number of horsrs in training to your stats. Im not aware of those stats, I think quantity of horses bred each yr is pretty strong in NZ but I believe horses in training would be subdtantially ess than Aust. Hard for NZ to compete on that basis. Im not sure how much it would affect your stats but it is important to be mindful of this when comparing.

[djgood]

i think you have to look at cost now theres a trotter just come over from NZ they paid a bit of money(over $15000) for it and cant win a T0-T1 trot at menangle, ive been trying to sell my Aussie bred who more than matches this trotter and won over $9000 this season for $5000 not one interest in her

[Maorisidol]

i think you have to look at cost now theres a trotter just come over from NZ they paid a bit of money(over $15000) for it and cant win a T0-T1 trot at menangle, ive been trying to sell my Aussie bred who more than matches this trotter and won over $9000 this season for $5000 not one interest in her

How do u think she would go in Qld David?
Wether u sell her or she is transferred to another trainer for a few months to give her a go? Ourlittlelil went to Qld a year ago or so from Vic and she won about 10k over the year and is now back home with initial trainer in Vic?
Used Tickets who started in Vic, then had some small success at Menangle came to back to Vic shortly but has now after a few months really hit form in SA recently.
Sometimes a fresh start new track new trainer can refresh a horse, look at Rainbow Jayjay, teasing now blitzing the opposition in Qld, mind u over the Mobile mile only really, but that's where she's best...

[djgood]

My mare and teasing are pretty even I think whichever horse lobs in front of the other beats the other home so I think she will go well in qld , but looking to sell to buy a 3 or 2 yo trotter and a yearling trotter if I don't sell she can keep going round picking up pretty decent prize money at menangle